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Thread: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I do understand the Trump anger and discontent. I have said so repeatedly. And I live in a poor, less populous state (Maine). In my state, I am on the losing side of elections and referendums about 50% of the time. Which means that those who disagree with me are on the losing side about half the time. In this state, we all get over it and move on. We DO understand each other. And, thank God, there is very little of this conspiracy hysteria here. Yes, we have had Trump rallies here and Trump truck parades. So what? No one bothered them and I certainly didn't begrudge their interest in demonstrating their political enthusiasm for a candidate. We all should! But this election challenging in 60+ cases, these conspiracy theories, and this recent phone call is just madness, delusion, cynical cravenness. It is misguided and injurious to democracy. It's a group of discontents, led by an egomaniac, sore over losing, and desperate to hold onto power and some psychological sense of legitimacy. Our country AlWAYS swings back and forth between the rule of these two parties. In this case, with Covid and social unrest and Trump's own poor leadership style, the swing back to Dems came after one term instead of two. Big deal! It's no surprise! Trump hasn't won the popular vote either time! He was lucky that he won the EC the first time.

    There is no steal in the vote counting! Get over it, Trumpers. It's for your own good, your party's own good, and democracy's own good.
    Yes, you have said repeatedly that you understand the anger and discontent. But when I read "there is very little of this conspiracy hysteria here" and what follows, I don't think you do understand. Maine is rural and centrist. Vermont is rural and left leaning. It's not just a matter of being rural. Once you get outside of Baltimore, you'll find as many rednecks with deer on the hoods of their trucks as you'll see in Arkansas. But they're New England states that don't have large scale industry or farming, like "Trump country". How many auto factories do you have? How many bushels of corn do you grow? Michigan has more in common with Texas than Maine does with Missouri.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    While I realize the stakes are much different, imagine a baseball hitter arguing two months out that had he not been called out on strike three, he would have hit a home run, that the umpire was fraudulent and out to take away his HR or better, that he actually did hit a home run, that the fans are upset, and for the baseball commissioner to find a way to show he hit a home run.
    Not a bad analogy, but it could be argued that weíre still in extra innings.
    The game was not tied at the end of nine innings, not even close. There was a winner after the first count finished. After recounts finished. After all the states certified. After the EC finished. And after 60+ court cases. Two states had close finishes and performed recounts and the same person won each time (no ties). The same person (team) has won the national election at the end of each of these stages.

    It's not extra innings. It's just certifying and recording the score. The contest was won two months ago.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I do understand the Trump anger and discontent. I have said so repeatedly. And I live in a poor, less populous state (Maine). In my state, I am on the losing side of elections and referendums about 50% of the time. Which means that those who disagree with me are on the losing side about half the time. In this state, we all get over it and move on. We DO understand each other. And, thank God, there is very little of this conspiracy hysteria here. Yes, we have had Trump rallies here and Trump truck parades. So what? No one bothered them and I certainly didn't begrudge their interest in demonstrating their political enthusiasm for a candidate. We all should! But this election challenging in 60+ cases, these conspiracy theories, and this recent phone call is just madness, delusion, cynical cravenness. It is misguided and injurious to democracy. It's a group of discontents, led by an egomaniac, sore over losing, and desperate to hold onto power and some psychological sense of legitimacy. Our country AlWAYS swings back and forth between the rule of these two parties. In this case, with Covid and social unrest and Trump's own poor leadership style, the swing back to Dems came after one term instead of two. Big deal! It's no surprise! Trump hasn't won the popular vote either time! He was lucky that he won the EC the first time.

    There is no steal in the vote counting! Get over it, Trumpers. It's for your own good, your party's own good, and democracy's own good.
    Yes, you have said repeatedly that you understand the anger and discontent. But when I read "there is very little of this conspiracy hysteria here" and what follows, I don't think you do understand. Maine is rural and centrist. Vermont is rural and left leaning. It's not just a matter of being rural. Once you get outside of Baltimore, you'll find as many rednecks with deer on the hoods of their trucks as you'll see in Arkansas. But they're New England states that don't have large scale industry or farming, like "Trump country". How many auto factories do you have? How many bushels of corn do you grow? Michigan has more in common with Texas than Maine does with Missouri.
    What, the Trump supporters here aren't legit? What is your point? My point is that I live among many people who voted for Trump and we get along and do not engage in conspiracy hysteria and protests and marches, etc.

    If your point is that I don't understand people who support Trump, that is false. If your point is that I do not understand why people believe in these theories, that is false, too. If your point is that I lack empathy, that is false also. I actually feel bad for them because they are suffering, and, I feel, being taken advantage of by their ego-maniacal and craven leader.

    The GOP has a LOT of work to do. I feel genuinely bad for what Trump and his populist energy has done to that party and to those people. It's good and right to fight for progress through politics. But hitching the wagon of hope to Trump was a grave error, and this election result is an attempt to fix that mistake through the contest. The 2016 slate of GOP candidates was a shit-show of weak, uninspiring candidates except for Trump's wrecking-ball appeal. Well, wreck it he has. Turns out he had no idea how to lead a nation. And the times asked for more of him than he was able or willing to give. So he is done.

    Get a better candidate in 2024.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Iíve also considered that Trumpís approval was pretty low during his tenure, if the percentages are to be believed and in neither election did he win the popular vote.

    Trump also had an overarching strategy of wooing his base which is clearing not a representation of the majority. So, itís not only plausible that he would loose, itís truly what one would expect.

    The baseball analogy intentionally was focused on the batter and not the outcome of the game, but either way, the point was that the event is over and the ruling made. Most of us would initially laugh at a person protesting for two months, but with Trump itís being treating as a rational thing to do and now to the point where actually suggesting the ďumpireĒ cheat and call the strike a hit (home run).

    Maybe some do, but I never exemplified someone who felt cheating to win had any bragging rights, nor was it something I condoned as a parent or coach or corporate team member. I doubt you folks have either, but some of you have a double standard for Trump. It just looks so totally irrational.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    TSherbs - Nope. Trump support in Maine isn't anything like it is in Texas, Missouri, Tennessee, Kentucky, Michigan (yes, Michigan), etc... My point is that when you demonize people who support Trump the way you have in this and the other thread, it's clear you don't understand them. The "empathy" comment you missed too. It's "strategic empathy", and I've brought it up more than once. It gets tedious clarifying what you make no attempt to understand. Hey, at least you asked for some clarity this time though. And the last isn't worth addressing, because it's just your TDS blather.

    Chuck - Trump got more votes in this election than Obama did in his first. That's more than just his base. His minority numbers were record setting. You assume Trump is trying to cheat, I suppose. Trump supporters think Biden cheated. They're just as sure of their position as you are of yours. I'm in neither camp, and both sides look irrational to me. One is convinced their evidence is proof. The other says there is no evidence. Two echo chambers shouting at each other.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Trump supporters in Portland, Maine.

    Maine Trump Rally.jpg

    Trump supporters in Dallas, Texas.

    Texas trump rally.jpg

    Trump supporters in Springfield, Missouri

    springfield mo.jpg


    Yeah, I guess you're right and it's the same thing.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Trump Parade in O'Connor Texas

    TrumpParadeTX.jpg

    Maine managed a reported "up to 50 boats"

    TrumpParadeME.jpg

    Sparsely populated North Dakota had 850

    5f440dbc7668c.image.jpg


    Yep, Maine is clearly deep red Trump country.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    dear lord

    I no longer know what you are going on about in these state comparisons.

    Nevermind.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.


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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Did Trump supporters condone the Houston Astroís cheating to win the Series?

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Nope, just like they donít condone Democrats cheating to win the Presidency.

    Which party has a long history of election fraud? Which party has a long list of political ďmachinesĒ in metro cities?

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    dear lord

    I no longer know what you are going on about in these state comparisons.

    Nevermind.
    dneal-
    Appreciate your ongoing responses to TS: I grew weary of trying to explain in a way that he could understand.

    His last word sounded familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5Vg


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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Try considering the English language, dneal. Trump demands that Georgia, after three recounts, should FIND 12,000 extra votes for him. Do you really believe that Georgia misplaced 12,000 Trump votes?

    Did you bother to read the transcript? Remember Trump's claim that Georgia hid hundreds of thousands of Trump votes? Did you read that without laughing at Trump?
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    dear lord

    I no longer know what you are going on about in these state comparisons.

    Nevermind.
    dneal-
    Appreciate your ongoing responses to TS: I grew weary of trying to explain in a way that he could understand.

    His last word sounded familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5Vg

    I thought the pictures would help. He's an English teacher, so maybe the online Shakespeare translator will make things more clear.

    D'nealio: Lief sir, i feareth thee doth not und'rstand these Trump vot'rs. The Washington Posteth is cunning and tells thee lies about those folk.

    TSherbus: I has't seen these Trump scoundrels in p'rson. I knoweth those folk well.

    D'nealio: Aye, but thee has't not obs'rv'd those folk en masse. Maine is not liketh Texas.

    TSherbus: Wherefore doth thee p'rsist in these state comparisons? One Trump'r is liketh anoth'r.

    D'nealio: Behold at these illustrations. A picture is w'rth one thousand w'rds.

    TSherbus: These pictures art m're confusing

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ...I doubt you folks have either, but some of you have a double standard for Trump. It just looks so totally irrational.
    Conspiracy thinking always has a "rationality" (a pattern of thinking) of its own: fear, rumor, a few "patterns," and the unknown (unknowable) get mixed into into "possibilities" which then concretize into "truth" ("convince me that this isn't true.")

    In Trump's case, in the phone call to Raffensberger, he does exactly that: He asks Raffensberger if it is "possible" that ballots were shredded in Fulton county. Then he immediately continues with "Do you know anything about that?" which concretizes the theoretical "possibility" into an actuality that he asks Raffensberger if he knows about. Raffensberger says "No." Trump then states, "You know what they did and you're not reporting it," again, turning a rumored hypothetical into a concrete factual claim, and an accusation of criminal conduct against Raffensberger. He accuses Raffensberger of criminally certifying election results that Raffensberger knows are false because of a theoretical "possibility" of votes being shredded.

    Classic conspiracy thinking there, in just a few sentences. It has its own "logic".

    Trump is addicted to this kind of stuff. He did it back with the Obama birtherism conspiracy theory, too. Often, conspiracy theories grow up in response (as a counter measure to) to other conspiracies that they sense in the world. A few people on the fringe make some weird claim out in the realm of mysterious possibility, and Trump's mental maw latches on and won't let go, partly because the "certitude" and feeling of insider knowledge and wisdom it gives him pumps up his weak sense of intellectual legitimacy (thus his bragging about his vocabulary, for example).

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Not sure I would agree that he is addicted, or not after reading Mary Trump's book. There is a family pathology where rules are meant for others. Plus, there is some anti social narcissistic personality traits on constant display. Perhaps he cannot help it and if so that's sad. My point is that you cannot have a person like this in a place where he or she has untethered power. Only a ralative few loose if he goes backrupt 4-5 times.

    It is interseting how otherwise smart, well educated people can be influenced to believe this person is a self made success.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ...I doubt you folks have either, but some of you have a double standard for Trump. It just looks so totally irrational.
    Conspiracy thinking always has a "rationality" (a pattern of thinking) of its own: fear, rumor, a few "patterns," and the unknown (unknowable) get mixed into into "possibilities" which then concretize into "truth" ("convince me that this isn't true.")

    In Trump's case, in the phone call to Raffensberger, he does exactly that: He asks Raffensberger if it is "possible" that ballots were shredded in Fulton county. Then he immediately continues with "Do you know anything about that?" which concretizes the theoretical "possibility" into an actuality that he asks Raffensberger if he knows about. Raffensberger says "No." Trump then states, "You know what they did and you're not reporting it," again, turning a rumored hypothetical into a concrete factual claim, and an accusation of criminal conduct against Raffensberger. He accuses Raffensberger of criminally certifying election results that Raffensberger knows are false because of a theoretical "possibility" of votes being shredded.

    Classic conspiracy thinking there, in just a few sentences. It has its own "logic".

    Trump is addicted to this kind of stuff. He did it back with the Obama birtherism conspiracy theory, too. Often, conspiracy theories grow up in response (as a counter measure to) to other conspiracies that they sense in the world. A few people on the fringe make some weird claim out in the realm of mysterious possibility, and Trump's mental maw latches on and won't let go, partly because the "certitude" and feeling of insider knowledge and wisdom it gives him pumps up his weak sense of intellectual legitimacy (thus his bragging about his vocabulary, for example).
    The amount of speculation about Trump masquerading as fact is entertaining. What makes you such an expert? How many times have you met him?

    You call other people delusional as you invent a narrative about Trump, and believe your narrative completely. Thereís more proof for election fraud than your assertions.

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    Senior Member Freddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    dneal: After readin' all your posts ... You are not the Devil's Advocate ... A Rabble Rouser, yes that's the ticket.

    Of course this is my personal opinion ... Take no offence ... 'Tis just business.....

    Fred

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    I just realized that I have been misspelling Georgia's Secretary of State Raffensperger's name. It's a "p," not a "b."

    on topic: It looks like Trump's work (and that of the people who spoke on his behalf) against the presidential result may have cost the the GOP control of the Senate. We'll see. Some counting still pending. But it's looking like a double Dem win to me (6:30AM EST).

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ...I doubt you folks have either, but some of you have a double standard for Trump. It just looks so totally irrational.
    Conspiracy thinking always has a "rationality" (a pattern of thinking) of its own: fear, rumor, a few "patterns," and the unknown (unknowable) get mixed into into "possibilities" which then concretize into "truth" ("convince me that this isn't true.")

    In Trump's case, in the phone call to Raffensberger, he does exactly that: He asks Raffensberger if it is "possible" that ballots were shredded in Fulton county. Then he immediately continues with "Do you know anything about that?" which concretizes the theoretical "possibility" into an actuality that he asks Raffensberger if he knows about. Raffensberger says "No." Trump then states, "You know what they did and you're not reporting it," again, turning a rumored hypothetical into a concrete factual claim, and an accusation of criminal conduct against Raffensberger. He accuses Raffensberger of criminally certifying election results that Raffensberger knows are false because of a theoretical "possibility" of votes being shredded.

    Classic conspiracy thinking there, in just a few sentences. It has its own "logic".

    Trump is addicted to this kind of stuff. He did it back with the Obama birtherism conspiracy theory, too. Often, conspiracy theories grow up in response (as a counter measure to) to other conspiracies that they sense in the world. A few people on the fringe make some weird claim out in the realm of mysterious possibility, and Trump's mental maw latches on and won't let go, partly because the "certitude" and feeling of insider knowledge and wisdom it gives him pumps up his weak sense of intellectual legitimacy (thus his bragging about his vocabulary, for example).
    The amount of speculation about Trump masquerading as fact is entertaining. What makes you such an expert? How many times have you met him?

    You call other people delusional as you invent a narrative about Trump, and believe your narrative completely. Thereís more proof for election fraud than your assertions.
    There are ample resources that would allow any interested, objective person to make an accessment of the Donald J. Trump's life. Using his actions since the election in November 2020, his use of letigation and making unsubstantiated, and attempt to intimidate are consistant with what his neice wrote and what John Bolton and John Woodward reported in their respective books. So, you have a relative, a former member of his administration, and a respected journalist to consider, whether you agree with their summations, at least you have to find other information that is in contrast in order to dismiss outright.

    What I am noticing from your posts is a complete lack of critical thinking in this matter. Trump's life is well documented as is his business failures after his father thorouhly honed the boy into what he has become.

  23. #60
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    dneal: After readin' all your posts ... You are not the Devil's Advocate ... A Rabble Rouser, yes that's the ticket.

    Of course this is my personal opinion ... Take no offence ... 'Tis just business.....

    Fred
    I confess to being a little bit of a rabble rouser, but there's only so much "orange man bad" (as if it's a valid argument) I can stomach.

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