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Thread: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

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    Default Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    In a violation of a couple of election laws and of the cautions of the Framers and of US tradition, Trump can be heard alternately threatening the Secretary of State of Georgia unless Secretary Raffensberger "finds" enough votes to make Trump winner of Georgia's presidential election, or begging Raffensberger to do so. Raffensberger refuses, telling Trump that the votes have been counted honestly and legally, that recounts (three of them) have found the same result: Biden won by about 11,700 votes. Raffensberger replies to each of Trump's, and the Republicans', imaginary complaints. "No", that did not happen.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...555_story.html

    Article includes part of the tape of the call.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Isn't that what democracy is?--if you don't like the result, just try to erase it?

    Ethically craven.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    The Post has published the audio and a transcript of the entire Trump call to Raffensberger and to the legal counsel for the Georgia Secretary of State. Here it is.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...9g1TFbBmg_p1z4

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    The Post has published the audio and a transcript of the entire Trump call to Raffensberger and to the legal counsel for the Georgia Secretary of State. Here it is.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...9g1TFbBmg_p1z4
    That's behind a paywall.

    But I have read excerpts elsewhere. What a scumbag chiseler Trump is.

    from Yahoo news feed: >>Legal experts told the Post the phone call puts Trump in "legally questionable territory" since it could be construed as an attempt to get Raffensperger to doctor Georgia's election results, but ultimately they believe the "clearer transgression is a moral one." <<

    Ha. The "clearer transgression is a moral one." But hey, it's his "right"! It's a "perfect" phone call.

    Trump has a habit of making these "perfect" phone calls when he asserts his leverage to make legally questionable and morally reprehensible requests.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Here's the transcript of the phone call. Please cite where Trump is demanding the Georgia Sec o State "change" votes.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/polit...ipt/index.html

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Try considering the English language, dneal. Trump demands that Georgia, after three recounts, should FIND 12,000 extra votes for him. Do you really believe that Georgia misplaced 12,000 Trump votes?

    Did you bother to read the transcript? Remember Trump's claim that Georgia hid hundreds of thousands of Trump votes? Did you read that without laughing at Trump?

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Here's the transcript of the phone call. Please cite where Trump is demanding the Georgia Sec o State "change" votes.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/polit...ipt/index.html
    Whom are you quoting with that word "change" referring to "votes"?
    Last edited by TSherbs; January 3rd, 2021 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Try considering the English language, dneal. Trump demands that Georgia, after three recounts, should FIND 12,000 extra votes for him. Do you really believe that Georgia misplaced 12,000 Trump votes?...
    What has been asserted above in this thread is that the possibility is so deeply ingrained in a sufficient number of citizens that the government should spend time and money beyond that already expended in multiple recounts and certifications and 60+ rejected legal filings and responses from the courts, all the way to the Supreme Court! There's the outrageousness in the request: make the effort cuz there's a conspiracy earworm circulating in Trumpville that 60+ court rejections has not been able to dispel. Spend more time on this lack-of-evidence case in order to disprove an already-discredited theory! Hop to it! And you had better have convincing evidence that this conspiracy does not exist (evidence of a negative) or the worm will dig deeper into my brain cuz Trump keeps pushing it further in!!!

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Try considering the English language, dneal. Trump demands that Georgia, after three recounts, should FIND 12,000 extra votes for him. Do you really believe that Georgia misplaced 12,000 Trump votes?

    Did you bother to read the transcript? Remember Trump's claim that Georgia hid hundreds of thousands of Trump votes? Did you read that without laughing at Trump?
    I read it. I'm just asking for the specific cite that supports the claim. I see phrasing that (if you consider the English language) says (paraphrasing) "if you look, you'll find fraudulent votes". A specific example is: "We think that if you check the signatures ó a real check of the signatures going back in Fulton County you'll find at least a couple of hundred thousand of forged signatures of people who have been forged."

    or

    "And you will find you will be at 11,779 within minutes, because Fulton County is totally corrupt and so is she, totally corrupt."

    That's the context of Trump's comments. I think the verbiage that's being taken out of context is:

    "And you are going to find that they are ó which is totally illegal, it is more illegal for you than it is for them because, you know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's a criminal, that's a criminal offense. And you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. And that's a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I've heard. And they are removing machinery and they're moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds. And you can't let it happen and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I'm notifying you that you're letting it happen. So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state."

    That's not asking a fellow republican who has been hostile to the Trump position to change votes. He's communicating what he (as a candidate) wants to find, and assumes he will if the Sec State allows or conducts an investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Whom are you quoting with that word "change" referring to "votes"?
    The thread title.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    It's the English language, dneal. Try reading the transcript. If the votes are the votes, as three recounts and as Secretary of State Raffensberger kept telling Trump, then how can Raffensberger find 12,000 more Trump votes? The logic is clear and simple. Trump's demand is clear. And crazy.

    The entire call is here for you: listen to Trump's insanity, to his opening howl that goes on so long that Mark Meadows is forced to interrupt. Note that Trump begins by insisting that he won Georgia because he had bigger rallies, the biggest, most beautiful rallies ever. And Biden had no rallies. Therefore, Trump won Georgia by hundreds of thousands of votes that he demands that Raffensberger find. Listen to Raffensberger and Germany tell him, patiently, that the votes have been counted and there are no more ballots hiding anywhere.

    Read and listen to Trump threaten Raffensberger and Germany. Listen again. That is corruption.

    Pull out you copy of Madison's Notes and your copy of the Federalist. Hunt down a copy of the Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution edited by John Kaminski. It is available on-line. In state after state, delegates to ratification conventions argued that the office of the chief executive, the President, might be corrupted by someone who used the central power to override an election. To retain power. The ratifiers seem to have forgotten to name Trump, but they described him.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    I read the transcript. I posted a link to the entire transcript, not you. You said "Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.", not me.

    You're deflecting and insulting when you could just be backing up your (and the WashPost's) claim. So go ahead, use a ctrl-f function or read the doc and copy/paste it. You can't, and you know it.

    I'm just pointing out that the WashPost is full of shit. I really don't know why you guys keep citing it when it hasn't had any credibility for the past decade. Bezos buying it just made it worse. For some reason you guys think pointing out Dem talking points makes me a Trump supporter, even though I point out that the conservative rags are full of shit too.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Let's just briefly peruse the record.

    Inauguration Day, 2016. Liberals are smashing windows and burning stuff, screaming to the sky that Trump stole the election. They then lost their minds over a stupid comment about a crowd that the press secretary made. TRUMP'S A BIG FAT LIAR!!!

    Then there was the story about Trump paying Russian hookers to pee on him.

    That was followed by three years of "Russian Collusion". The left ate that up. Adam Schiff leaked like a sieve and claimed the intel community provided him with proof of it. That was a lie. The Muller investigation spent three years and 30 million dollars and couldn't prove anything, but liberals swore it did. The liberals still went ahead with impeachment proceedings. Turned out it was all based off a fake dossier Hillary paid for. An FBI lawyer is being sentenced right now for forging a document to get a FISA warrant.

    Remember that poor Sandmann kid who The Washington Post had to settle with because of the lies they told about him? That's not even an integrity issue as much as an issue of decency. A major media outlet (several, actually) defamed an innocent teenager.

    Hunter Biden? Russian disinformation, the liberal media told us. Now we know he's been under investigation since 2018.

    The left has been pushing lies for four years. But now we should trust them when they immediately claim "nothing to see here" and social media tags or bans posts? What are they hiding? Who has a track record of being delusional?

    Four democrat controlled cities in four swing states had the same series of events happen.

    - Changed rules outside the legislature to expand mail-in ballots.
    - Stopped counting votes around midnight, and started counting again in the wee hours of the morning.
    - Trump's overwhelming lead turned into a marginal Biden lead at 4 o'clock in the morning.

    That's an anomaly, and the first time I can recall that happening in an election. It's suspicious, and warrants looking into. The media screams louder that those people are delusional conspiracy theorists and block any look into public records that are required to be maintained for 22 months. Maricopa County is still fighting a legislative subpoena. Michigan Secretary of State fought to block examination of voting systems. The list goes on. If there's nothing to hide, and nothing nefarious; why not let people see? What do you have to hide? The denial strengthens the suspicion.

    Over 17000 votes in Dougherty County, GA were deducted from Trump. The data was presented at a GA senate hearing on 30 December. No user input error. This is what came from the Scytl server (which is sent to the GA Secretary of State office and the Edison system that goes to news outlets). That's after counties submit their votes. At 2:34 AM, Trump had 20,189 votes in that county. At 2:40 AM he had 8,699. In Dodge County, he lost 7008 votes. In Putnam County he had 5935 votes go "poof". In eight minutes the Edison feed showed Trump losing 12,173 votes and Biden gaining that exact amount. That happens in Michigan? "User error". Exact same thing happens in multiple counties in Georgia? No wonder no one wants to look into potential problems. No wonder all we hear is deflection and lies about Trump losing 50 court cases. Yeah, people are just delusional conspiracy theorists... Maybe there's a plausible explanation, but you have to look into it to find out.

    Pointing that out doesn't make me a Trump supporter. It makes me honest and objective.

    p.s.: Lin Wood is bat-shit crazy, and he's an example of the looneys on the right. I can acknowledge that they exist on both sides. I think suing Pence or trying to get him to not acknowledge electoral votes is a bad precedent (even though curiously there's a lot of precedent for it, starting with John Adams). If this forum were full of Trump supporters, I would be contradicting their bias too.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Let's just briefly peruse the record.

    Inauguration Day, 2016. Liberals are smashing windows and burning stuff, screaming to the sky that Trump stole the election. They then lost their minds over a stupid comment about a crowd that the press secretary made. TRUMP'S A BIG FAT LIAR!!! ....
    Why should anyone continue reading this after *that* summary of "the record"? That summary is as biased as they come and does not represent any "record." You claim "objectivity," in bragging terms, but I call false.

    Each matter that you point out has already been addressed by state officials. The officials certified the counts. The officials are from both parties.

    Conspiracists love to make meaning in patterns; it gives them the dopamine hit that they are looking for.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Why should anyone continue reading this after *that* summary of "the record"? That summary is as biased as they come and does not represent any "record." You claim "objectivity," in bragging terms, but I call false.
    Exactly, but that knife cuts both ways. You just canít see, and/or wonít admit your own bias. Sometimes people call that denial, sometimes they call that delusional. Perhaps youíre unconsciously projecting in all your accusations...

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Why should anyone continue reading this after *that* summary of "the record"? That summary is as biased as they come and does not represent any "record." You claim "objectivity," in bragging terms, but I call false.
    Exactly, but that knife cuts both ways. You just canít see, and/or wonít admit your own bias. Sometimes people call that denial, sometimes they call that delusional. Perhaps youíre unconsciously projecting in all your accusations...
    I don't recall ever denying that I have bias. There is no person nor any publication without it. I have a long personal story (I am over 60 years old) with politics and voting and journalism (I have taught it).

    I hate Trump, personally. I consider him despicable and craven. I consider his lawyers to be doing the worst of legal work: enabling moral evil. I have not denied any of this, so I am not "projecting" anything on you. It's just so easy to recognize *your* bias, even while you deny having it (which tends to call even more attention to it).

    Now, back to the election results, the legal cases, and recent news.

    Trump's phone call was an attempt to "change the vote" as in vote outcome and, in some cases, to review actual individual votes and invalidate them or to "find" stray or missing Trump votes and validate them. It strikes me as a fair representation to say that he is attempting to change the credit or worthiness of some actual individual votes. Yes. You took that thread title and read it in the most narrow way in order to criticize a point that no one in the thread was actually claiming.

    I, for one, am very glad that Raffensberger taped that call. Everyone should record every dealing that they have with that crazy snake.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    ďThe people of Georgia are angry, the people of the country are angry. And thereís nothing wrong with saying that, you know, um, that youíve recalculated.Ē
    So, um, Trump demands that the State of Georgia "recalculate" the votes to "find" an extra 12,000 votes for Trump. That is nazi-talk, an attempt by Trump, the ex-president, to overturn a US election that was tested in court 60 times and found to be sound and honest. It happens that Secretary of State Raffensberger and his legal council refuted every one of Trump's laughable claims. You, dneal, keep repeating garbage from conspiracy websites that ignore every single explanation by the Republican election officials in Georgia.

    Your charges get sicker and sicker. Trump led in votes counted the evening of election day? So what? Many people voted by mail. Democrats tended to vote by mail, as every single scrap of evidence suggested long before the election. Trump badgered his voters to vote in person, for the same reason he demanded that his True Believers show their "manhood" by refusing to wear masks, just as he encouraged his deluded followers to jam together without masks at his rallies.

    Many states counted mail-in votes only AFTER counting in-person votes. Why is it surprising that votes counted later tended toward Biden?

    Further, we know that about half of all Georgians live in Atlanta and its suburbs? Why are you surprised that the Atlanta votes shifted the total count toward Joe Biden??

    We know that most states are that way: New York County, which is Manhattan, has more voters than Delaware County, a dying ex-farm county upstate. Chicago carries more weight that Downstate. Baltimore, its suburbs, and the Maryland suburbs of DC have far more people than the counties west of the Catoctin Mountains. What's the surprise?

    Do you claim that it is illegal for Americans to vote? Or to vote against your wishes? That is Trump's argument and the argument of the Trumpists who now dominate the Republican Party. Trump spits his fantasy into the phone, and we hear him threatening Raffensberger with some sort of Federal arrest unless Raffensberger submits to Trump's imaginary claim that hundreds of thousands of Trump votes vanished on election day.

    Then there is your nonsense claim that "liberals" broke windows in Washington when Trump was inaugurated. Check the news, including the Washington Post -- the local newspaper -- and the Times. About two dozen kids dressed in black hoodies ran down a block breaking car windows, some store windows maybe, and setting fire to trashcans. They were arrested. In your even-steven wacky telling, that equals a calculated effort by the defeated President of the United States to overturn the US election so he can remain in power indefinitely. The black bloc is minor street crime. Trump's is treason by making war on the Constitution of the United States.

    That's Trump. dneal, you are arguing against reality.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    And you take the quote out of the context of the paragraph (and indeed the entire conversation) to convince yourself Trump is pressuring a hostile Sec State he has no authority over. What's Trump's leverage to get the guy to do anything?

    That's some seriously blue Kool-aide you're swallowing.

    And so I just don't know, you know, Mark, I don't know what's the purpose. I won't give Dominion a pass because we found too many bad things. But we don't need Dominion or anything else. We have won this election in Georgia based on all of this. And there's nothing wrong with saying that, Brad. You know I mean, having the correct ó the people of Georgia are angry. And these numbers are going to be repeated on Monday night. Along with others that we're going to have by that time which are much more substantial even. And the people of Georgia are angry, the people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you've recalculated. Because the 2,236 in absentee ballots. I mean, they're all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms law firms, etc. and even if you cut 'em in half, cut 'em in half and cut 'em in half, again, it's more votes than we need.
    Trump didn't demand anything you're suggesting. If you want to talk about "charges getting sicker and sicker", one only needs to look at the title of this thread.

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    I don't recall ever denying that I have bias. There is no person nor any publication without it. I have a long personal story (I am over 60 years old) with politics and voting and journalism (I have taught it).

    I hate Trump, personally. I consider him despicable and craven. I consider his lawyers to be doing the worst of legal work: enabling moral evil. I have not denied any of this, so I am not "projecting" anything on you. It's just so easy to recognize *your* bias, even while you deny having it (which tends to call even more attention to it).

    Now, back to the election results, the legal cases, and recent news.

    Trump's phone call was an attempt to "change the vote" as in vote outcome and, in some cases, to review actual individual votes and invalidate them or to "find" stray or missing Trump votes and validate them. It strikes me as a fair representation to say that he is attempting to change the credit or worthiness of some actual individual votes. Yes. You took that thread title and read it in the most narrow way in order to criticize a point that no one in the thread was actually claiming.

    I, for one, am very glad that Raffensberger taped that call. Everyone should record every dealing that they have with that crazy snake.
    Fair enough. I'll be happy to criticize the conservative side if you like. Where would you like me to start? I already noted Lin Wood was bat-shit crazy, and that the suit against Pence was ridiculous.

    I am curious if you think there is anything about the election that could give an objective observer a modicum of a reason for suspicion?

    I've been watching various lawyers on YouTube offer their opinions, mainly because I find the legal wranglings and historical precedents interesting. YouTube suggested one who is Canadian (and therefore presumably free of interest in either party's success). He comments on many things going on, from lockdowns to Ghislane Maxwell's case; and often has American attorneys as guests to explain U.S. law. Even he sees the legal merits of the Trump "election was stolen" claims and that the courts have not truly addressed the claims.

    That's most in line with my perspective. I don't love Trump, and I don't hate him. I didn't love or hate Clinton, Bush or Obama. Army officers had a tradition of neutrality, which I try to maintain and wish some of our more recent generals would remember. General Dempsey is probably the last one who reminded his peers of their moral obligation to shut the f*ck up. I've never been a fan of General Flynn. I hated that he was picked for a position (because of what I know about him through the Army and won't go into here). I also thought his case was prosecutorial misconduct. His comments on seizing machines is reprehensible, and if I were king for a day I'd prosecute him under the UCMJ (which retired officers are still subject to) for conduct unbecoming (for starters).

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    And you take the quote out of the context of the paragraph (and indeed the entire conversation) to convince yourself Trump is pressuring a hostile Sec State he has no authority over.
    What do you mean by the word in red? All I saw Raffensberger do was defend the conclusions of his state's procedures (and his own personal and professional integrity) and deny the insinuations of the president. Why are you calling him "hostile"? Is this your idea of lack of bias?

    What's Trump's leverage to get the guy to do anything?
    Is this a serious question? You don't seem naive, so I am flummoxed by this question. Maybe you are being sarcastic.

    dneal, you should drop this pretense of being a middle-of-the-roader with an objective point of view

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    Default Re: Trump demands that Georgia Secretary of State change votes so he wins.

    There are plenty of Republicans that are anti-Trump. Not all are as obvious as Romney is or McCain was. Raffensberger would have been all over an investigation if he were a ĎTrumpistí, or an opportunist like Lindsay Graham.

    Yes, Iím serious about what leverage does a sitting President have on a sitting Secretary of State. You like to dismiss questions when the answer doesnít favor your argument. At best, Trump can wage a publicity campaign against him. He has done that for a month, and also against Governor Kemp. If it didnít sway them at this point, some phone call of Trump complaining isnít either - and thatís incidentally why the accusation of Trump pressuring him to change votes is so ridiculous.

    Thereís no pretense about being objective. You just canít see it through the lens of your TDS. Name one Trump policy you agree with, and Iíll name one (or several if you like) that I donít.

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