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Thread: Countdown until the maniac is gone

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Here are the people who took the Capitol this week, and why. They believe every lie that the Trump Media -- he calls them that -- have spit into cyber-space. They have no grip on reality, on logic, on evidence. They are oblivious. This guy is the retired airforce officer who went into the Capitol with a fist-full of nylon handcuffs. Did he intend to kidnap a senator or representative?

    Tell me again how we can cure psychosis by explaining reality to them?

    Come on dneal. Explain again why they are "middle america" but I am not?

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...NpmgYlkWyP7c6s
    You aren't interested in an explanation, and would ignore any given; so why should I bother?

    What's really funny is that a New Yorker wants a middle American to explain why a New Yorker is not a middle American. So let me just turn that around. Please explain why I'm not a New Yorker just because I live in middle America?
    Ridiculous that you claim to know "middle america" and that you define it. Just as Trump's neo-nazis declare that any vote for Joe Biden is a fraudulent vote because, because, because, well, it just is.

    What makes you, dneal, the person who defines "middle america"? Do you really mean to say that a Real Amurican is someone who believes only what Trump tells him? That there is no observable reality, that humans cannot or should not try to find our way toward some sort of truith? That has been your argument, twisted and "post-modernist", that every neo-nazi fantasy should be taken as seriously even after it cannot be proven. You had all the court cases, all the evidence, all the shameful admissions by Trump lawyers that they had no claims of fraud, yet you repeat again and again that there must be something. Your pseudo evidence reduces itself to crazy people talking to pro-trump legislators at information sessions where, for instance, the Republican legislators refused even to force "witnesses" to swear to tell the truth.

    We all remember the drunken woman who rambled pn even as Rudy Giuliani tried to get her to shut up.

    You tell us that "voters" -- meaning you -- will never believe that votes were counted honestly. No matter what. The world must bend to your and their fantasy. Georgia election workers stole the election, you claim. The Georgia Secretary of State's staff and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation counted the votes three times. The GBI compared voter signatures. The voting result matched what polling agencies predicted...tossup. Yet hundreds of thousand of votes were stolen.

    You claim, most recently, a string of random Real Bad Things, but neglect to provide a reference to anything. Al;l sound like the same complaints that have been evaluated in courts and dismissed. Over and over. The same ones that an Attorney General of Texas attached to the end of his suit, his downright bizarre suit, against Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. The Texas AG did not bother to mention where these claims had been considered and what had been decided. The Supreme Court sniffed and dismissed the main legal argument from Texas, and did not need to bother re-hearing all the specific claims. Yet you drag it up, as if Roberts Court somehow cheated the American people by not, for the fiftieth time, examining how an electronic voting machine works.

    Trump lost. Lost the election and lost sixty lawsuits based on nothing more than his temper-tantrum claims that "I had big rallies". Tough.

  2. #22
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Such hatred for a guy that's going to be gone in 10 days. Why do you let this consume you?

    I don't know why you want me to try to convince you of something that you clearly will never believe. Wanna talk delusional? That's delusional my friend.

    The only thing you believe is what the Washpost spoon feeds you.

    But please explain why I'm not a New Yorker. I won't hold my breath waiting...

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Such hatred for a guy that's going to be gone in 10 days. Why do you let this consume you?
    I think that he's pissed because he keeps asking you for a suggestion of how to persuade these election result deniers (eg, that Trump won in a landslide, but that tens or hundreds of thousands of votes were stolen or forged or whatever). You have claimed insider knowledge of the workings of their thinking. So, why won't you make a suggestion beyond to keep investigating these "theories"? Obviously, you understand that all 50 states have their own quality control process, all 50 states have their own legal process to examine their procedures and their own courts to adjudicate claims about fraud. These processes were invoked in many of these states, even with recounts, hand recounts, and then hand-count random audits. No significant fraud or inaccuracies were found.

    What also makes this look just like delusion and/or partisan unwillingness-to-lose is that not one lawsuit was filed by any person to question the voting result for a Republican who won, even on the same ballots and states being questioned in these suits. Not one Republican winner in any of those contested states rejected his or her own victory on the grounds that the vote count was fraudulent or the voting process was unconstitutionally changed. Which, to me, so smacks of bullshit politics that it is craven morally.

    So, other than suggesting a legal review process that the Constitution does not support (the Fed govt is not empowered to run or quality-control elections, very purposefully), what can you suggest? And many other persons are reading this thread besides Welch, you, me, and Freddie, so you might give your idea for those lurking dozens of persons.

  4. #24
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    I've said multiple times what it would take to persuade these election deniers. I don't claim insider knowledge, I just observe. I've peeked into all kinds of scary parts of the interwebz. Their complaints overwhelmingly are:

    - Dominion systems rigged. A forensic analysis will clear this up.
    - Judges aren't fair. Not a lot you can do about this, but that's why the SC should have heard the Texas case.
    - Court cases haven't weighed the merits. They've got a fair point on this. Most were dismissed procedurally.
    - States violated their election laws. They've got a good point on this.
    - Absentee / Mail-in ballots were fraudulent. I have no idea on this one. There's certainly a good possibility, which is why most western countries don't allow it and why the election commission said we shouldn't do it. The flip side is that places like Oregon seem to have figured it out. The statisticians are just going to sling numbers at each other, which is only convincing to what one wants to believe. An investigation will clear this up.

    Left-leaning media and Democrat politicians dismiss and use terms like "baseless claims" and "delusional", it incites and strengthens conspiracy theories (ah ha! what don't they want us to see!!!)
    Right-leaning media and Republican politicians reinforce doubt.

    Everybody gets a nice steamy cup of "shut the f*ck up" with an investigation.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I've said multiple times what it would take to persuade these election deniers. I don't claim insider knowledge, I just observe. I've peeked into all kinds of scary parts of the interwebz. Their complaints overwhelmingly are:

    - Dominion systems rigged. A forensic analysis will clear this up.
    - Judges aren't fair. Not a lot you can do about this, but that's why the SC should have heard the Texas case.
    - Court cases haven't weighed the merits. They've got a fair point on this. Most were dismissed procedurally.
    - States violated their election laws. They've got a good point on this.
    - Absentee / Mail-in ballots were fraudulent. I have no idea on this one. There's certainly a good possibility, which is why most western countries don't allow it and why the election commission said we shouldn't do it. The flip side is that places like Oregon seem to have figured it out. The statisticians are just going to sling numbers at each other, which is only convincing to what one wants to believe. An investigation will clear this up.

    Left-leaning media and Democrat politicians dismiss and use terms like "baseless claims" and "delusional", it incites and strengthens conspiracy theories (ah ha! what don't they want us to see!!!)
    Right-leaning media and Republican politicians reinforce doubt.

    Everybody gets a nice steamy cup of "shut the f*ck up" with an investigation.
    I'll let welch handle these if he is interested. I am done with these, but he may be still interested.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    1. Dominion systems.

    Trump based his accusation on a report by OANN that referenced Edison Research, an election monitoring group. The company's president, Larry Rosin, said: "Edison Research has produced no such report and we have no evidence of any voter fraud." OANN did not provide any evidence to back up its claim.

    2. Judges aren't fair.
    3. Court cases haven't weighed the merits. Most were dismissed procedurally.

    Lumping both together. Give some examples of why the judges aren't fair, beyond dismissing cases procedurally. The judges can hardly be held accountable for the lack of coherent argument presented by a plaintiff.

    4. States violated their election laws.

    As the country was in an extraordinary situation vis a vis the pandemic, it is not surprising that contingencies to allow free and fair elections may not have existed in current State legislation.

    5. Absentee / Mail-in ballots were fraudulent.

    It's a possibility, though history of the election process shows that it has never been a significant issue. Oh, and 5 States always have mail-in ballots. Incidentally, many Western countries allow mail-in voting, it's not rare, sometime it's for specific circumstances (and the pandemic would certainly qualify as that), and a lot of the time it's just a choice. Mail-in ballot fraud is rare in those countries too.


    The overall point is that none of these questions require investigation. They have all been debunked sufficiently to remove doubt from the average rational mind.

    The way I see it right now is that Trump supporters are of the mindset that they must have won because they are shouting loudest. Street-side interviews of random supporters kind of bears that out.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    You guys keep arguing with me about this (not to mention accusing me of all kinds of stuff) for pointing out that this is what people believe and why they believe it. Then you ask what it would take to convince them otherwise. Then you say it's all bunk and they shouldn't have to have it proven to them. Then you wonder why tens of thousands of them gather at the capitol, with a percentage of them storming it.

    How many times do you really want to run around this circular argument? A basic understanding of information operations and influencing civilian populations would benefit you. Clearly you get the notion of "disinformation". What do you do when a large portion of the population succumbs to disinformation? Calling them delusional conspiracy theorists and ignoring them isn't the answer. You present new information to combat the disinformation. They are skeptical, in a paranoid way. The new information would arise from the results of an investigation.

    Iraqis were convinced our sunglasses had some x-ray technology that allowed us to see through their womens' clothes. Calling them stupid didn't dispel their belief. Letting them examine the sunglasses did.

    This isn't rocket science.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    That's not an accurate summary of our discussions here, dneal. But I take it to be an indication of how you perceive them.

    What you are leaving out is that the examination of the accuracy of the vote counting has already been done. And it is still rejected by that core of disbelievers.

    So what then? The disbelievers have not yet shown themselves open to rational persuasion.

    The causes of the problem here are not the voting machines or the judges or the lawmakers. The problem is the viral echo chamber of the internet and the goading and legitimization from the President broadcast to his 85 million followers (and more via television).

    My remedy suggestion begins not with more examination of voting machines, but with the current POTUS stating that it was a free and fair election. He has been the primary amplifier of the paranoid conspiracy.

    The distrust of this voting result is not the result of any actual increase in problems with machines or process. In fact, it went smoother than ever with the greatest turnout ever...and even during a pandemic. The problem began with persons making unsubstantiated claims which then went viral and then were amplified by POTUS. Then lawmakers started repeating the speculation to ride the populist energy. None had any proof at all of anything nefarious or egregious. None. Not a single one. The remedy is for those people to fess up and recant and set the record straight.

    And still some fools will stick to the victim-story of a "steal," any way.

    Certain people will always see the devil in the night woods, even after daylight has shown nothing to be there. They just make up explanations for that, too.

    There's medication that helps. A bit.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    In the interest of providing some balance to this conversation, I think it needs to be acknowledged that not everyone who is angry is solely focused on the voting machines, the absentee ballots or for that matter anything that has to do with the process of the vote.

    The simple fact is that much of the mainstream media never got over Hillary's loss in 2016. They spent the next four years doing everything possible to assure Trump did not win the 2020 election. The lies, misrepresentations and censorship, which all followed Trump's 2016 victory, poisoned the minds of many who relied upon the mainstream media's "news" headlines for their information. It is sad, but true, that many too many people never look beyond the headlines for their information.

    This, of course, culminated with the media and big tech's outright, reckless suppression of fact-based information which absolutely would have influenced some voters choices. It is irresponsible, if not shameless, that they kept legitimate news, which now even they acknowledge as factual, from the American public...... all in the name of getting their candidate elected. This is just my opinion but I think this is why a lot of people are angry.
    Last edited by 724Seney; January 10th, 2021 at 07:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    I don't see this as a balanced reply. I've never read or heard anyone saying Trump didn't win. They were shocked that such a person, with a history of failed business ventures and preditory behavior toward miniorities and females could win the election. Of course, I do not know who you consider mainstream media which has become a undefined cliche.

    Social media finally understood that their holdings could result in insurrection, distruction, and sadly, death. There is the concept of "greater good" that business ethics demands.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I don't see this as a balanced reply. I've never read or heard anyone saying Trump didn't win. They were shocked that such a person, with a history of failed business ventures and preditory behavior toward miniorities and females could win the election. Of course, I do not know who you consider mainstream media which has become a undefined cliche.

    Social media finally understood that their holdings could result in insurrection, distruction, and sadly, death. There is the concept of "greater good" that business ethics demands.
    The word "balance" was utilized to convey that there was more to the anger of > 75 million Americans than just the voting process, itself. Many have accepted that as fair and legitimate yet are still angry with what has transpired.

    As for the application of the word "ethics" to the main social media applications (and their respective leadership)............seriously?????

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I don't see this as a balanced reply. I've never read or heard anyone saying Trump didn't win. They were shocked that such a person, with a history of failed business ventures and preditory behavior toward miniorities and females could win the election. Of course, I do not know who you consider mainstream media which has become a undefined cliche.

    Social media finally understood that their holdings could result in insurrection, distruction, and sadly, death. There is the concept of "greater good" that business ethics demands.
    Hillary complaining that she won and that the election was stolen = Trump didn't win.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I don't see this as a balanced reply. I've never read or heard anyone saying Trump didn't win. They were shocked that such a person, with a history of failed business ventures and preditory behavior toward miniorities and females could win the election. Of course, I do not know who you consider mainstream media which has become a undefined cliche.

    Social media finally understood that their holdings could result in insurrection, distruction, and sadly, death. There is the concept of "greater good" that business ethics demands.
    The word "balance" was utilized to convey that there was more to the anger of > 75 million Americans than just the voting process, itself. Many have accepted that as fair and legitimate yet are still angry with what has transpired.

    As for the application of the word "ethics" to the main social media applications (and their respective leadership)............seriously?????
    I do not intuitivily understand your context unless you explain nor do I know that 75 million Americans are any more angry or concerned that those who voted for Clinton in 2016. Not that you implied that comparisen.

    Ethics and dogma are liquid as more information comes forward. Do you think the same as you did at 20 years old? People "shit" in the Capital. A person was beaten to death in the capital with a fire extinguisher. If you own a company that allowed the radicalization and carrying out of the exercise of this behavior, yes, a change of focus and philosophy must take place. And, remember, corporations are made up of people just like me and you.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    ...The simple fact is that much of the mainstream media never got over Hillary's loss in 2016. They spent the next four years doing everything possible to assure Trump did not win the 2020 election. The lies, misrepresentations and censorship, which all followed Trump's 2016 victory....
    This is hyperbole. Even "mainstream media" doesn't really mean anything. (For example, are you including Fox as a "mainstream" liar biased against Trump? Don't they lead all the TV news networks in viewership, for over 10 years straight? They certainly are not anti-Trump, right?)

    What actual media outlet and what censorship, just for starters, do you mean? I am not sure that a media outlet can "censor" anyone. They report, not silence. But perhaps you can tell us what you mean.

    I consider the AP and Reuters to be the most reliable of all straight news article outlets. Can you point out any "lies" or "misinformation" or "censorship" that the AP or Reuters has engaged in?

    For sure, the media themselves have been in a battle for viewers, browser clicks, and dollars. One has to be mindful while consuming the content. But when Trump himself gave dozens and dozens of interviews only on Fox, the leading cable news organ, it seems inaccurate to simply state that "mainstream media" was against Trump from the start. He LOVED Fox and extolled their virtues. Until he didn't....

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Franklin Graham,
    "“If Joe Biden is the president, if that’s what it turns out to be, then we need to do everything we can to support him, where we can,” he told the AP.

    Still, critics were quick to call his message of unity hypocritical after repeatedly backing Trump’s baseless claims of election fraud.

    In a Dec. 28 tweet, Graham urged his supporters to vote Republican in the Georgia runoff election and warned of the “radical agenda of the left.”

    While he is free to express his sentiments and so many sit at his feet (because he had a daddy in the business), does he question the election?

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I don't see this as a balanced reply. I've never read or heard anyone saying Trump didn't win. They were shocked that such a person, with a history of failed business ventures and preditory behavior toward miniorities and females could win the election. Of course, I do not know who you consider mainstream media which has become a undefined cliche.

    Social media finally understood that their holdings could result in insurrection, distruction, and sadly, death. There is the concept of "greater good" that business ethics demands.
    The word "balance" was utilized to convey that there was more to the anger of > 75 million Americans than just the voting process, itself. Many have accepted that as fair and legitimate yet are still angry with what has transpired.

    As for the application of the word "ethics" to the main social media applications (and their respective leadership)............seriously?????
    I do not intuitivily understand your context unless you explain nor do I know that 75 million Americans are any more angry or concerned that those who voted for Clinton in 2016. Not that you implied that comparisen.

    Ethics and dogma are liquid as more information comes forward. Do you think the same as you did at 20 years old? People "shit" in the Capital. A person was beaten to death in the capital with a fire extinguisher. If you own a company that allowed the radicalization and carrying out of the exercise of this behavior, yes, a change of focus and philosophy must take place. And, remember, corporations are made up of people just like me and you.
    I agree 100%. Free speech and the First Amendment only go so far. An activity where people are killed and property is destroyed is to be condemned. Period.
    Did they all take the Summer off and are just now back on the job?

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    That's not an accurate summary of our discussions here, dneal. But I take it to be an indication of how you perceive them.
    We'll just have to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    What you are leaving out is that the examination of the accuracy of the vote counting has already been done. And it is still rejected by that core of disbelievers.

    So what then? The disbelievers have not yet shown themselves open to rational persuasion.
    This is the point I have been making. Yes, a cursory examination has been done by both sides. One says no issue, the other says big issues. The examination of Dominion machines in Michigan led to a report of problems. How accurate it is I do not know. You can't ignore half the argument or disregard the possibility of it having any credibility and then accuse "disbelievers" not being open to rational persuasion. Again, whether it's factually true or not (and I don't think we have absolute proof either way) doesn't matter when someone holds a belief that it's true (or not).

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    The causes of the problem here are not the voting machines or the judges or the lawmakers. The problem is the viral echo chamber of the internet and the goading and legitimization from the President broadcast to his 85 million followers (and more via television).
    I don't disagree about the echo chambers. They exist on both sides though.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    My remedy suggestion begins not with more examination of voting machines, but with the current POTUS stating that it was a free and fair election. He has been the primary amplifier of the paranoid conspiracy.
    Yes he has been the amplifier (although there are others). He's not going to say it was free and fair anymore than Hillary did. Some republicans like Dan Crenshaw (who seems to be very reasonable with great integrity), along with Trey Gowdy, Chip Roy, etc... have recently published a podcast titled "The truth about Jan 6th". I haven't listened to it yet, but the comments seem to be centered around accusations of lying or covering up. Yes, the conspiracy bent is strong; which is why the counter-narrative has to be tailored to it and compelling. You'll never convince the "Alex Jones" types, but that's ok. You do need to whittle away at the 70M people who do believe it. Not all of them are irrational. They just don't trust anything anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    The distrust of this voting result is not the result of any actual increase in problems with machines or process. In fact, it went smoother than ever with the greatest turnout ever...and even during a pandemic. The problem began with persons making unsubstantiated claims which then went viral and then were amplified by POTUS. Then lawmakers started repeating the speculation to ride the populist energy. None had any proof at all of anything nefarious or egregious. None. Not a single one. The remedy is for those people to fess up and recant and set the record straight.

    And still some fools will stick to the victim-story of a "steal," any way.

    Certain people will always see the devil in the night woods, even after daylight has shown nothing to be there. They just make up explanations for that, too.

    There's medication that helps. A bit.
    There are a great many people who made claims under penalty of perjury. A few are dingbats like the blonde lady from Michigan. Most are seasoned poll watchers, current or former election officials, etc... I've watched (and posted video of) a great many who appear cogent and credible. They might be mistaken, but no one has demonstrated that - your claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

    As 724Seney points out, there are a lot of other factors. I've already pointed it out (only to have it ignored), but "Trumpers" have watched the media lie consistently (from their perspective anyway). Russian Collusion and all the stuff that's part of it. Carter Page and George Papadopolous, Strozk and Page, Comey, Clapper and Brennan. Republicans are on the Steele Dossier like a Jack Russell with a squeaky toy. Biden vs Trump Ukraine inconsistency. Adam Schiff's lies. Biden laptop. The media (and the Democrats) have as much blame in creating and reinforcing distrust as Trump with his tweets.
    Last edited by dneal; January 10th, 2021 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    "It takes a tremendous amount of work to educate citizens to resist the powerful pull of believing what they already believe, or what others around them believe, or what would make sense of their own previous choices. Plato noted a particular risk for tyrants: that they would be surrounded in the end by yes-men and enablers. Aristotle worried that, in a democracy, a wealthy and talented demagogue could all too easily master the minds of the populace. Aware of these risks and others, the framers of the Constitution instituted a system of checks and balances. The point was not simply to ensure that no one branch of government dominated the others but also to anchor in institutions different points of view.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/m...gtype=Homepage

    Unless each of us attempts to use some will and energy to find out what actually is, we will repeat the same events again. I am not suggesting we agree. Disagreement can be healthy because we are not all at the same place in time. What might be true for me might not be true for you.

    If you don't want to take the COVID-19 vaccine, at least study it.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ...The media (and the Democrats) have as much blame in creating and reinforcing distrust as Trump with his tweets.
    Not the distrust of this election, they don't. This is a singular production, begun in the corners of the internet (Trump's "Many people are saying..."), amplified by the president, and then perpetrated as a con job upon his more gullible and suggestible followers for his own needs.

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    Default Re: Countdown until the maniac is gone

    Trump has not contacted the family of the officer lethally struck in the head by his sycophants. Pense has made made contact to offer his condolences. Trump would sell anyone out in a second if it helped him.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to Chuck Naill For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (January 13th, 2021)

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