How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

[mhosea]

The false dichotomy was really kind of the underlying point I was making. The notion that one needs to be a MAGA Trump supporter to have reasonable suspicion of election fraud in 2020 is ridiculous. My skepticism would be allayed by complete signature match audits in the suspect counties because I suspect large numbers of mail in ballots were prepared for Biden. You wait to see how many ballots you need, and you hope you have enough eligible voters on the list who didn’t vote to identify them with. It’s not practical to forge signatures, of course. Indeed the envelopes for these ballots may not even exist. But if they were valid ballots, legally cast, then the envelopes do exist, and they will have something that vaguely resembles the right signature on them. If the envelopes never existd, they will have been “accidentally thrown away”.

[kazoolaw]

Warbler: “I am typo.”
Can’t be more succinct than that.

[Warbler]

Warbler: “I am typo.”
Can’t be more succinct than that.

Whatever. I made a typo, shoot me.

[Warbler]

The false dichotomy was really kind of the underlying point I was making. The notion that one needs to be a MAGA Trump supporter to have reasonable suspicion of election fraud in 2020 is ridiculous. My skepticism would be allayed by complete signature match audits in the suspect counties because I suspect large numbers of mail in ballots were prepared for Biden. You wait to see how many ballots you need, and you hope you have enough eligible voters on the list who didn’t vote to identify them with. It’s not practical to forge signatures, of course. Indeed the envelopes for these ballots may not even exist. But if they were valid ballots, legally cast, then the envelopes do exist, and they will have something that vaguely resembles the right signature on them. If the envelopes never existd, they will have been “accidentally thrown away”.

Rare indeed is it to find one whom is suspicious of the 2020 election that is not maga. (assuming this is so about you) Tell me do think there was enough fraud to effect the outcome of the electoral college.

[mhosea]

Rare indeed is it to find one whom is suspicious of the 2020 election that is not maga. (assuming this is so about you) Tell me do think there was enough fraud to effect the outcome of the electoral college.

Is it rare? You might be right, but then again, there was such a full court press to ridicule "election deniers" as conspiracy theorist kooks, if not subversive dissidents, that I myself have said very little about it publicly. The US Constitution does make it clear that Biden was the actual winner, whether or not he won because of fraud. While more than one "Hail Mary" was attempted, the designed solution to a crookedly elected president in the US Constitution is to gut it out for four years and then vote in somebody else, possibly the aggrieved candidate. I think something like that happened with Andrew Jackson, at least by his own reckoning of the situation. Anyway, the question about election fraud is academic except to inform us what sorts of improvements in election security make sense. The stability of the republic, the very foundation of our "democracy" (such as it is), rests on the public perception that elections are both fair and free. I have never seen cause to question it in my local precinct and town, but in some particular precincts in the nation, I'm not so sure.

Yes, I do think there was enough because otherwise the counting wouldn't have paused in the wee hours for these key precincts in these key states. It was something like 2am, though I don't remember exactly. I am a mathematician, and I was crunching the numbers and projecting the outcome for these states. among others that I had successfully called before the media did earlier in the evening. My numbers were projecting a Trump win of the electoral college, even if one or maybe a select two of the competitive outstanding states in play ultimately ended up going the other way. When they were down to a few large precincts in each of these key states in the eastern half of the nation, everything ground to a halt in those states at the same time. The likelihood that this was a coincidence seemed infinitesimal to me, but more to the point, when they did come back in with more numbers, they were heavily, heavily skewed, nothing like the distributions we had seen before, and not like what was seen in similar precincts elsewhere. If one is quantitatively competent, ones hackles do stand up when seeing that. It had the appearance to me of having been coordinated at a higher level, and if so, I think it's reasonable to assume that they would not have invoked that (alleged) plan B if it had not been both necessary and effective for achieving their desired outcome.

[Warbler]

Rare indeed is it to find one whom is suspicious of the 2020 election that is not maga. (assuming this is so about you) Tell me do think there was enough fraud to effect the outcome of the electoral college.

Is it rare? .

yep.

You might be right, but then again, there was such a full court press to ridicule "election deniers" as conspiracy theorist kooks,

That's because the overwhelming election deniers were conspiracy theorist kooks or Trump worshipers. The great orange man said the election was stolen therefore it must be. One of the reason they got ridiculed was that they kept claiming the election was stolen without offering any solid proof for believing so. Lets face it the thing that started the whole thing was inmate#P01135809's ego. The great orange man couldn't possibly lose an election therefore it must be stolen.

if not subversive dissidents, that I myself have said very little about it publicly. The US Constitution does make it clear that Biden was the actual winner, whether or not he won because of fraud. While more than one "Hail Mary" was attempted, the designed solution to a crookedly elected president in the US Constitution is to gut it out for four years and then vote in somebody else, possibly the aggrieved candidate. I think something like that happened with Andrew Jackson, at least by his own reckoning of the situation.

according to Trump you can do more than gut it out, you can act like a crybaby. You can try to talk to the VP and try to have him turn over the results of the election. You can do a Jan 6.

Anyway, the question about election fraud is academic except to inform us what sorts of improvements in election security make sense. The stability of the republic, the very foundation of our "democracy" (such as it is), rests on the public perception that elections are both fair and free.

And just what do you think all the claims about a stolen election and fraud by the great orange man are doing to the public perception of our elections?

I have never seen cause to question it in my local precinct and town, but in some particular precincts in the nation, I'm not so sure.

like I said before, I agree there was probably some amount of fraud like there always it. There are always dead people voting and whatnot. But I have yet to see anything solid that says it was enough to change the outcome of the electoral college.

Yes, I do think there was enough because otherwise the counting wouldn't have paused in the wee hours for these key precincts in these key states. It was something like 2am, though I don't remember exactly

So your only evidence a pause? Isn't possible it was only outside perception that there was pause?

I am a mathematician, and I was crunching the numbers and projecting the outcome for these states. among others that I had successfully called before the media did earlier in the evening. My numbers were projecting a Trump win of the electoral college, even if one or maybe a select two of the competitive outstanding states in play ultimately ended up going the other way. When they were down to a few large precincts in each of these key states in the eastern half of the nation, everything ground to a halt in those states at the same time. The likelihood that this was a coincidence seemed infinitesimal to me, but more to the point, when they did come back in with more numbers, they were heavily, heavily skewed, nothing like the distributions we had seen before, and not like what was seen in similar precincts elsewhere.

What do you mean by heavily skewed? If you mean there were more votes for Biden coming in than there had been, that can be explained. It was in the middle of the pandemic. Some voted with mail in ballots. Many more libs and dems voted by mail in ballot than did conservatives and republicans. Remember before the election Trump went off on mail in ballots.

question about election fraud is academic except to inform us what sorts of improvements in election security make sense.

I agree we should always look to improve election security where we can.

The stability of the republic, the very foundation of our "democracy" (such as it is), rests on the public perception that elections are both fair and free.

And just what do you think all the claims by the great orange man about a stolen election and fraud are doing to the public perception of our elections?

I have never seen cause to question it in my local precinct and town, but in some particular precincts in the nation, I'm not so sure.

like I said before, I agree there was probably some amount of fraud like there always it. There are always dead people voting and whatnot. But I have yet to see anything solid that says it was enough to change the outcome of the electoral college.

Yes, I do think there was enough because otherwise the counting wouldn't have paused in the wee hours for these key precincts in these key states. It was something like 2am, though I don't remember exactly

So your only evidence is a pause? Isn't possible it was only outside perception that there was pause?

If one is quantitatively competent, ones hackles do stand up when seeing that. It had the appearance to me of having been coordinated at a higher level, and if so, I think it's reasonable to assume that they would not have invoked that (alleged) plan B if it had not been both necessary and effective for achieving their desired outcome.

Plan B? What is that? Anyway do you realize how many would probably have to be involved in rigging an election to the point where it changed the outcome the electoral college? I am guessing alot. What are the odds that it wouldn't have leaked by now? That someone guilt ridden or looking to make a name for themselves wouldn't have come forward by now?

All you have is "a pause" (if that is what it was ) and "skewed numbers" that is not concrete evidence.

[dneal]

Warbler’s TDS has hit redline, with a refusal to consider the answer to the question just like we’ve seen throughout this thread. Skwerlmasta’s post applies here too.

And just what do you think all the claims about a stolen election and fraud by the great orange man are doing to the public perception of our elections?

You mean Al Gore, right? Or John Kerry? Or Hillary? Or the plethora of folks in this video Seney posted?

This video is approximately 10 minutes long.
If you have any interest in this topic (and my sense is most of the active participants in this sub-forum do), you should watch it in its entirely.
It won't change anybody's mind, but it does put current events into a more proper, long term perspective.

https://vimeo.com/857918759/2bd39f690a

But the larger question is the topic of this thread.

[mhosea]

And just what do you think all the claims about a stolen election and fraud by the great orange man are doing to the public perception of our elections?

I think I already implied my disapproval, as this is part of how he handled the affair. I would have counseled him to seek signature match audits to address concerns about an election involving unprecedented levels of mail-in voting. Such audits would have the effect of bolstering confidence in the election if they were conducted and nothing of consequence found. Of course, Trump using careful wording is like an oxymoron.

Secondarily, I suggest toning down the disdainful rhetoric. Nothing good comes from it. I actually regret using the word "idiocy" above in reference to the way Trump reacted. I was trying to make my disapproval crystal clear, as I did not think "unwise" instead of "pure idiocy" would convey strength of my conviction on the matter. Still, I wish I had written "unwise" instead. In fact, I will edit it. I can at least do that much.

[Chuck Naill]

Yeah, but you’ve supported Trump, and that destroys your credibility.

[Warbler]

Secondarily, I suggest toning down the disdainful rhetoric. Nothing good comes from it. I actually regret using the word "idiocy" above in reference to the way Trump reacted. I was trying to make my disapproval crystal clear, as I did not think "unwise" instead of "pure idiocy" would convey strength of my conviction on the matter. Still, I wish I had written "unwise" instead. In fact, I will edit it. I can at least do that much.

Maybe I should tone down the "disdainful rhetoric" But it is hard to do that when dealing with Trump and his "supporters" (More properly known as worshipers, yes men, cult members, etc ...) I mean it overwhelmingly obvious that Trump doesn't belong anywhere the white house, that him in the white house is a danger to the country, democracy and the world. Yet they are going to vote in back in. Trump was right when he said "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" I mean when you support someone that much that he can do absolutely no wrong, that he should shoot someone and still not lose your support, I lose all respect for you. Trump supporters being extremely irresponsible with their votes and it could cost us all our democratic freedoms. I have no respect for them. I understand like liking Biden, I don't like him all that much. But supporting a man like Trump? The thing is, if the Republicans in the primaries voters for someone else, say, Nikki Haley, I might well have been inclined to vote for her in November. But thanks to their stupidity and worship of Trump, I am forced to vote for Biden or a dictator. So the heck with Trump and his supporters.

[dneal]

T.D.S.

[mhosea]

Maybe I should tone down the "disdainful rhetoric" But it is hard to do that when dealing with Trump and his "supporters" <snip>

What convicted me was 1 John 2:9-11, especially when combined with Matthew 5:22. It's a good thing my thoughts aren't transcribed without my consent, because my initial reactions are not always fit to print. But I'm getting better.

[Warbler]

Maybe I should tone down the "disdainful rhetoric" But it is hard to do that when dealing with Trump and his "supporters" <snip>

What convicted me was 1 John 2:9-11, especially when combined with Matthew 5:22. It's a good thing my thoughts aren't transcribed without my consent, because my initial reactions are not always fit to print. But I'm getting better.

Trump isn't my brother.

[Warbler]

This is interesting . . . https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/15/polit...ate/index.html

[Chuck Naill]

Maybe I should tone down the "disdainful rhetoric" But it is hard to do that when dealing with Trump and his "supporters" <snip>

What convicted me was 1 John 2:9-11, especially when combined with Matthew 5:22. It's a good thing my thoughts aren't transcribed without my consent, because my initial reactions are not always fit to print. But I'm getting better.

What was it about those references convicted you?

[kazoolaw]

Elections overturned, including apparent Dem-on-Dem cheating (Connecticut)



https://apnews.com/article/texas-jud...0bb78a2c6241fd

https://apnews.com/article/connectic...968ffdaa0b6369


https://apnews.com/article/louisiana...1276f0dae76bc0

[dneal]

Rasmussen from 28 Jun 2023:

"Do you agree or disagree with this statement: “There is no way Joe Biden got 81 million votes in the 2020 Election.”"

Agree-
DEM: 31%
IND: 45%
GOP: 72%
All Voters: 49%

[Chuck Naill]

How many here fly their American flags upside down?

[Warbler]

How many here fly their American flags upside down?

I don't. But I could be very tempted to do so if Trump wins.

[724Seney]

How many here fly their American flags upside down?

I don't. But I could be very tempted to do so if Trump wins.

Do you really think anybody would notice? Or care?

Are you really willing to let the chief demento pimento and his progressive cronies destroy our Country because you are so offended by things Trump has said? (Things which I'm betting you have said on more than one occasion, too?)

Time to run this one back by you sufferers of TDS.
Trump-Biden Meme 5-12-21.jpeg