How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

[dneal]

I've grown tired of discussing Trump except to respond to some nonense here suggesting Biden is a bad person. While he is not my favorite person, he does appear to have empathy or at least appear to have empathy. I cannot imagine how anyone with his life trageties would need to fake it.

From what I have read, Trumpians like what he says and that he never admits wrong. I guess they see something in him they want to see in themselves.

I suppose the need to disparage Biden is more from a need to neutralize anti-Trumpers. Who knows?? I've heard them say " no one is perfect". Well, that's obvious. We are not execting perfection, but we do expect people to tell the truth, have a smidgeon of kindness, and treat others as they want to be treated because those that don't often end up doing time.

You've grown so tired of discussing Trump that the first thing you start discussing is Trump. Not unexpected.

Trump is an obnoxious asshole. I agreed with a lot of his policies. I disagreed with some too. Make NATO countries pay their "contractual" share? I'm onboard. Stop Bill Gates from working with China on new-style nuclear power (like France has been building)? Stupid. It would have reduced China's pollution and made nuclear cheaper and more abundant - an actual "clean" energy that isn't dependent on fickle weather and produces enough electricity to actually be useful. I can list a lot more that I agreed and disagreed with. Contrary to your wild accusations, I'm about policies and not politicians or party.

Biden is a typical politician. Do you really think he intends to implement any of the initiatives the progressives want? Biden is the epitome of the status quo for the kleptocracy. The glimpses in the news of the money he's funneled to his son, brother, etc... isn't particularly unique. The Clintons made an art of it, and there are plenty of Republicans involved in the graft game too.

The problem with Biden is that he's not all there. It's painfully obvious. How many clips do you want to watch of him stumbling and mumbling? You know, the thing...

When you can't even admit the obvious, and as long as you view all those who disagree with your politics as "Trumpians", you simply demonstrate your bias and failure to reason. Replace "Trumpian" with "Blacks", and consider how objective you sound. Assigning motive and belief to half the country, lumping them all together and then labeling with a slur for convenience. Maybe it's not only them that have an issue with objectivity.

[TSherbs]

So, how can Trump-believers be convinced that he lost an honest election? Those are your words, dneal, no one else's. No one claims that "half the country" is Trumpian, except you in your deflective aspersion. We all know that "Trump-believers" (again, your words) are a minority of the country. Each election has shown us so. In each election, more people voted for Trump's opponents than for him.

So, the question remains, what will it take to convince Trump's minority collection of "believers" that he lost an honest election? I say, nothing can convince them all, and it isn't worth the effort. But I do believe that every person or corporation who has suffered damages from the "big lie" should sue each of the lie promulgators to make them hurt and dissuade the next group of perfidious enemies of the will of the people.

[dneal]

So, how can Trump-believers be convinced that he lost an honest election? Those are your words, dneal, no one else's.

No dipshit, it's literally the title of the thread. They're Welch's words, not mine. FFS, try to keep up.

So, the question remains, what will it take to convince Trump's minority collection of "believers" that he lost an honest election?

As has been answered many times, audits; which people strangely seemed opposed to. Here's where you're fucking hypocrites though. Is it ok for the IRS or NY AG to audit Trump's tax records? Audits are no big deal, right?

I'm ok with both, although the NY case sure looks like political payback to me. I'm also ok with legislatures ordering audits of their State's election.

--edit--

Oh, and spare me the indignation of "unbelievers". 8 fucking years of Bush we heard how Gore and Kerry really beat him. How many years did Hillary bemoan Russian Collusion? and the whole country was on about the popular vote... How many years did Mueller (another should be out-to-pasture bureaucrat), not to mention Clapper, Comey and Brennan promise us Trump stole the election?

The Dems are well past due for some bitching. Take your medicine.

[TSherbs]

Bitching is fine. No one here minds that.

It's willful prevarication to undermine confidence in a cynical powerplay against the will of the people, that we mind. And everyone *should* mind that.

My only complaint here has been about the big lie, even after multiple audits have occurred. You know the endgame here, dneal. It's a grab for power, not an attempt at accuracy. You know that the results will not change in this election. This has not been about this election. And it is not about trying to make us *more* confident in our voting: Trump had never been motivated by clearer and more accurate counting. He has only attacked swing states where he lost. Every one of his claims about fraud has been shown to be false. Continuing audits do not erase the cumulative effect of the toxin of false claims. Your disingenuousness on this topic is as bad as Trump's. Obama, for example, is still tainted in the minds of some people by the Trumpian lie that he was not born in America. Evidence doesn't dissuade fools from ignorant acceptance of malicious rumor and conspiracy.

You lie when you say that more audits is the answer to Trumpian belief in falsehoods.

[dneal]

The things that happened in the 4 big swing states were similar, and novel. That alone causes a reasonable raise of an eyebrow. There are reasonable people (even Democrats, apparently), that suspect something fishy went on. A real audit, regardless of the results, will assuage any concerns.

The true, die-hard Trumpian - say Mike Lindell - is always going to believe crazy shit. Both sides have their fringe. That's not who the audits are really for.

And of course it's all about power. It is the U.S. Presidency, after all; and all the power and money machinations that take place around it.

[TSherbs]

Oh, and spare me the indignation of "unbelievers". 8 fucking years of Bush we heard how Gore and Kerry really beat him.

You'll never hear me say that. Bush won, fair and square. Gore conceded. No storming the capital.

My indignation is genuine, deep, and specific: Trump is lying in a concerted, willful attempt to subvert the will of the country in a free and fair election, the most accurate tabulation in modern history, even with record turnout.

I never said any such thing, not even close, after Bush won. Gore's concession was exactly the right thing to do at exactly the time he did it.

Trump, and his followers who aid and abet the lie, are pieces of shit deciding that their candidate winning is more important than accepting the result of a record turnout with record accuracy.

And that is ethically and morally craven.

[TSherbs]

Here's another important difference: Gore wanted to slow the Florida vote counting down in order to make sure that all the ballots were counted.

Trump wanted to speed the counting up and have winners declared when he was leading the night of the election, even when he and everyone else with a brain knew that it would take many more hours (days) to process all the ballots. Trump's tweets and arguments on election night reveal his lack of primary interest in an accurate tabulation of the votes.

He even said before the election that he would accept the result only if he won.

He didn't, and he still hasn't.

[TSherbs]

The truculent Trumpers have fucked this election thing up for decades, you assholes. It's on you, and every other ignoramus who can't keep his or her political psychology under some semblance of rational and moral control.

[dneal]

The truculent Trumpers have fucked this election thing up for decades, you assholes. It's on you, and every other ignoramus who can't keep his or her political psychology under some semblance of rational and moral control.

The irony is delicious.

p.s.: "truculent Trumpers" have only been around since 2016. It's only 5 years later. Not even a decade (let alone plural).

[TSherbs]

"for decades" means into the future, dodo

The assault on democracy and the idea that the people's vote counts more than any one team winning will take a long time to repair. Decades.

Even this stupid "audit" in Arizona, because chain of custody of machines has been broken, now means that Maricopa has to acquire new machines for the next election.

And the damage spreads. I wonder what is next.

[TSherbs]

Bush beat Gore, Gore conceded (after delays in counting Florida votes).

Bush beat Kerry, Kerry conceded.

Obama beat McCain, McCain conceded.

Obama beat Romney, Romney conceded.

Trump beat Clinton, Clinton conceded.

Biden beat Trump, Trump and his allies initiated 70+ lawsuits in only the swing states that he lost, won none of them of any consequence, promulgated and perpetuated the big lie that the election was rigged and stolen, headlined a rally in DC and spurred the crowd on to fight the certification of the EC result (clear Biden win). The crowd assaulted the Capitol, assaulted police. More than 500 arrests have been made in consequence.

Who's the sorest loser in modern presidential history? Who has been most willing to abrogate the will of the people? Who has been a petty tyrant-wannabe? Who has purposely lied to the American people about the danger of a pandemic, which has now resulted in the death of 600,000+ Americans?

This fuckface has damaged America for decades to come.

[TSherbs]

And, no. Reasonable people in the middle of the GOP are not who need convincing about this past election integrity. No reasonable person has any substantial doubts about the results in these states that the several state-run professional reviews could not answer to.

Reasonable people on this matter know the reality of this process: it was free and fair and very well run.

It's those people with other psychological and reasoning issues who can't accept the loss and who were vulnerable and manipulated by Trump and his cohort into believing a false narrative. Craven, power-hungry sycophants promulgating a lie to hold onto power at any cost, and the pliant common folk, tickled by the fantasies of conspiracy like addicts to their drugs, bought into it.

And some still do, cuz drug habits and fantasies are hard to break.

[TSherbs]

Here is a reporter's look at the Trump believers and speakers at the recent Cleveland rally. And an encounter with Marjorie Taylor Green.

Decide for yourself how "middle" these ideas are.

POLITICO
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...-future-496991

[dneal]

Somebody’s triggered.

[TSherbs]

Willful ignorance in adults is galling to me, especially when it spreads like disease and damages people.

[TSherbs]

I am reminded of this poem of modernity:

The Second Coming
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[TSherbs]

A great article on the Michigan certification and committee review, and "the big lie."

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...campaign=share

[TSherbs]

Another white, mostly male, white supremacist group marching and chanting the lie of the steal.

Does their racism make them stupid, or the other way around?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...e-say-n1273096

[kazoolaw]

"Stop the Steal" said no Democrat ever?
https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2021/...-count-n399649
Dem on Dem chicanery?

[TSherbs]

Latest check on Trumpian lies:

https://apnews.com/article/technolog...c6b90a474267cc