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Thread: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Something that's a little ironic, and the die-hard Trump people would not admit to, is that Trump's post-election strategy in Georgia may have actually hurt rather than helped the Republican candidates. From what I saw, and it seems part of his character, is that he would not pull back and focus on winning Georgia. Instead he would ramble on about how the election was "stolen" or about lawsuits, or about recounts. He seemed unable to set aside himself and focus on winning the swing voter, or the pro-Republican voter being ginned up into thinking that the whole thing was a "fraud" and that he should stay home.

    His rallies had (and perhaps always had) a combination of tent revival, circus sideshow, and live infomercial. He's one part preacher, one part Barnum, one part QVC host at the rallies. But when the moment came to transcend himself and to focus on the task in Georgia, he fell short. He had the power to occasionally make a prescient point, but then a sentence later or a day later undermine his own position. He fought with a number of people who supposedly were supposed to be allies - Mattis, Bolton, Spicer, Preibus, Barr, Sessions, etc. Plenty of people were willing to hear a populist message, but many people were also turned off by the chaos and constant bickering with anyone and everyone within reach.

    I am not sure what the future history of biographies and books and essays about the "historical Trump" will be, or whether there will ever be a "historical Trump". Perhaps it is all so controversial that he will never fully pass into history, but will remain a contentious figure permanently. I cannot, at least for now, see a "neutral" biography of Trump in 50 years' time, but that may just be the perspective of the present.
    Last edited by Ray-VIgo; January 20th, 2021 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Mr Neal, I have moved on. Today's inauguration of President Joe Biden and Vice-President Kamala Harris was inspirational and uplifting. You can now choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem.

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    Lloyd (January 20th, 2021)

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Mr Neal, I have moved on. Today's inauguration of President Joe Biden and Vice-President Kamala Harris was inspirational and uplifting. You can now choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem.
    You’ll have to first define what you consider the problem to be.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Mr Neal, I have moved on. Today's inauguration of President Joe Biden and Vice-President Kamala Harris was inspirational and uplifting. You can now choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem.
    You’ll have to first define what you consider the problem to be.
    Clearly the above is talkin' 'bout youse Mr Neal......If Sphere wants they can define it for you ... counselor.....
    I can't cause I'm waitin' on a Mr. Green........................

    Fred
    Give 'em hell 54th.................

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    The "stop the steal" conspiracy-cultists can adjust to reality or, eyes closed, walk into walls and trees. Perhaps the social psychosis will wear off. Certainly, those who attacked the Capitol -- those with fantasies of lynching Pence and Pelosi and Ocasio-Cortez -- will be arrested and prosecuted. Maybe the rest will slowly give it up.

    Some, such as the Republican Party of Arizona, seem determined to commit themselves to die for Trump. That's what Kelli Ward demands. Perhaps there will be a reckoning inside the Republican Party, with conservatives going one way, and Trump-cultists going another -- into irrelevance.

    It seems that there is nothing the rest of us can do to help the cultists.

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for Fred and welch to be free of the anger.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    The thing is that the trouble runs deep on both the left and the right. Each side has its cultists, of sorts. They always did, but their number seems to have grown, and I no longer would count on the centrist elements to be able to control or sway the flanks into accepting any compromise. The far left will not be satisfied with Biden or the center-left, while the far-right will not be satisfied with losing or with concessions made by the center-right.

    And I can't say as an election to decide between a huckster and a scarecrow will solve it. Most concerning, the rioting in cities last summer, the militia activities in state capitals over the lockdown, and the U.S. Capitol riot seem to have opened a door of sorts to conflict in the open. They may now see more to gain than to lose by employing selective rioting and violence.

    Politics is not a substitute for civil society, and maybe we're learning it the hard way. People so opposed to each other should have to collaborate on some non-partisan project. Something like work together on a road crew, or build a house or a barn or something like that. There is no substitute for engagement face-to-face in some collaborative way, re-humanize in the eyes of the opponent. I hope we're not totally beyond it.

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    There is no substitute for engagement face-to-face in some collaborative way, re-humanize in the eyes of the opponent. I hope we're not totally beyond it.
    The internet and social media seem to exacerbate the incivility. Peterson talks about the underlying potential for aggression or violence, and to an extent that is the mechanism for enforcing some semblance of civility. It's much easier to be an asshole when protected by the distance and anonymity of the internet.

    Conversely, the internet seems to fuel rage until some seek a physical outlet for it. Punching nazis or storming buildings and whatnot.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    fountainpenkid (January 21st, 2021)

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    The "stop the steal" conspiracy-cultists can adjust to reality or, eyes closed, walk into walls and trees. Perhaps the social psychosis will wear off.

    It seems that there is nothing the rest of us can do to help the cultists.
    Doesn't seem that 2106 has worn off yet.

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    The "stop the steal" conspiracy-cultists can adjust to reality or, eyes closed, walk into walls and trees. Perhaps the social psychosis will wear off.

    It seems that there is nothing the rest of us can do to help the cultists.
    Doesn't seem that 2106 has worn off yet.
    Does this mean anything?

    Do you, Kazoolaw, think I doubted the results of the 2016 election? I hated the results, but the vote was the vote. Too bad that Clinton lost to a white supremacist, but we, who disliked that result organized in 2018 to put the Democratic Party in charge of the House, and kept organizing in 2020 to defeat Trump.

    Biden/Harris beat Trump by 7 million popular votes and by about 75 electoral votes. Biden/Harris carried the three important states that Clinton lost in 2016 -- Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Biden/Harris paid special attention to them, and, no surprise, won them. The win was consistent with pre-election polling. The same polling said that Arizona would be a tossup, especially since Mark Kelly was well ahead of the Republican running for Senate. The same polling, and common sense, said that Georgia would be close, since, after all, since Stacy Abrams came very close to winning the governor's race in 2018.

    Sure, Trump claimed he had won the election before the votes were counted, but American voters count more than Trump, Giuliani, Fox, Alex Jones, and the assembled far right-wing rage-guys.

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Yes, yes it does.

    Don't lose to a real candidate, had to be because he was a white supremacist. Not what you meant? Why mention it?

    "Cultists". Can't stop the demonizing.

    2016 runs deep.

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    dneal (January 21st, 2021)

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for Fred and welch to be free of the anger.
    dneal ... dneal ... No anger on my part..whatsoever.....Perhaps a defense mechanism at work....?

    Evidence Cases and Materials...................

    Maybe you could write a Delusional History of the Trump Presidency?


    Like I told the judge....Your honor I'd like to/a postpone {ment} 'cause I'm still waitin' on Mr. Green

    Still your friend and mine,

    Fred
    {Freakin'HappySmileyFaceTimeThingie}
    Last edited by Freddie; January 21st, 2021 at 11:21 PM.

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    It's been investigated in... how many court cases, many presided by judges appointed under right-wing governments?
    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for Fred and welch to be free of the anger.
    dneal ... dneal ... No anger on my part..whatsoever.....Perhaps a defense mechanism at work....?

    Evidence Cases and Materials...................

    Maybe you could write a Delusional History of the Trump Presidency?


    Like I told the judge....Your honor I'd like to/a postpone {ment} 'cause I'm still waitin' on Mr. Green

    Still your friend and mine,

    Fred
    {Freakin'HappySmileyFaceTimeThingie}
    I think you guys have the delusional history of the Trump Presidency covered quite well. I'm using the format for the Biden presidency.

    p.s.: I would have rather had Rand Paul than Trump, and Tulsi Gabbard than Biden.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    While Trump is gone, a good number of Trump voters remain convinced that, astoundingly, he won the election in a landslide but that his "win" was stolen. That belief in the unreal remains to be cleaned up. Dominion voting machines company has been forcing some of the loudest spouters of crazy stuff to admit they fibbed. On to Giuliani:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/25/u...gtype=Homepage

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Rand Paul must have the NYT scared. Plus, it's easier to talk about Trump than Biden's dumpster fire of a first week in office.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for Fred and welch to be free of the anger.
    dneal ... dneal ... No anger on my part..whatsoever.....Perhaps a defense mechanism at work....?

    Evidence Cases and Materials...................

    Maybe you could write a Delusional History of the Trump Presidency?


    Like I told the judge....Your honor I'd like to/a postpone {ment} 'cause I'm still waitin' on Mr. Green

    Still your friend and mine,

    Fred
    {Freakin'HappySmileyFaceTimeThingie}
    I think you guys have the delusional history of the Trump Presidency covered quite well. I'm using the format for the Biden presidency.

    p.s.: I would have rather had Rand Paul than Trump, and Tulsi Gabbard than Biden.
    Re Youse Guys ... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot ? Format Good for you ... We all need hobbies.

    Re P.S. Ok.

    Still your friend and his,

    Fred
    R-68

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Trump tried desperately to throw out the election that he lost so badly. Yet another effort:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/u...-election.html

    Trump and Justice Dept. Lawyer Said to Have Plotted to Oust Acting Attorney General

    Trying to find another avenue to push his baseless election claims, Donald Trump considered installing a loyalist.


    Katie Benner
    By Katie Benner
    Jan. 22, 2021

    WASHINGTON — The Justice Department’s top leaders listened in stunned silence this month: One of their peers, they were told, had devised a plan with President Donald J. Trump to oust Jeffrey A. Rosen as acting attorney general and wield the department’s power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results.

    The unassuming lawyer who worked on the plan, Jeffrey Clark, had been devising ways to cast doubt on the election results and to bolster Mr. Trump’s continuing legal battles and the pressure on Georgia politicians. Because Mr. Rosen had refused the president’s entreaties to carry out those plans, Mr. Trump was about to decide whether to fire Mr. Rosen and replace him with Mr. Clark.

    The department officials, convened on a conference call, then asked each other: What will you do if Mr. Rosen is dismissed?

    The answer was unanimous. They would resign.

    Their informal pact ultimately helped persuade Mr. Trump to keep Mr. Rosen in place, calculating that a furor over mass resignations at the top of the Justice Department would eclipse any attention on his baseless accusations of voter fraud. Mr. Trump’s decision came only after Mr. Rosen and Mr. Clark made their competing cases to him in a bizarre White House meeting that two officials compared with an episode of Mr. Trump’s reality show “The Apprentice,” albeit one that could prompt a constitutional crisis.

    The previously unknown chapter was the culmination of the president’s long-running effort to batter the Justice Department into advancing his personal agenda. He also pressed Mr. Rosen to appoint special counsels, including one who would look into Dominion Voting Systems, a maker of election equipment that Mr. Trump’s allies had falsely said was working with Venezuela to flip votes from Mr. Trump to Joseph R. Biden Jr.

    This account of the department’s final days under Mr. Trump’s leadership is based on interviews with four former Trump administration officials who asked not to be named because of fear of retaliation.

    Mr. Clark said that this account contained inaccuracies but did not specify, adding that he could not discuss any conversations with Mr. Trump or Justice Department lawyers because of “the strictures of legal privilege.” “Senior Justice Department lawyers, not uncommonly, provide legal advice to the White House as part of our duties,” he said. “All my official communications were consistent with law.”

    Mr. Clark categorically denied that he devised any plan to oust Mr. Rosen, or to formulate recommendations for action based on factual inaccuracies gleaned from the internet. “My practice is to rely on sworn testimony to assess disputed factual claims,” Mr. Clark said. “There was a candid discussion of options and pros and cons with the president. It is unfortunate that those who were part of a privileged legal conversation would comment in public about such internal deliberations, while also distorting any discussions.”

    Mr. Clark also noted that he was the lead signatory on a Justice Department request last month asking a federal judge to reject a lawsuit that sought to pressure Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the results of the election.

    Mr. Trump declined to comment. An adviser said that Mr. Trump has consistently argued that the justice system should investigate “rampant election fraud that has plagued our system for years.”

    The adviser added that “any assertion to the contrary is false and being driven by those who wish to keep the system broken.” Mr. Clark agreed and said that “legal privileges” prevented him from divulging specifics regarding the conversation.

    A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment, as did Mr. Rosen.

    When Mr. Trump said on Dec. 14 that Attorney General William P. Barr was leaving the department, some officials thought that he might allow Mr. Rosen a short reprieve before pressing him about voter fraud. After all, Mr. Barr would be around for another week.

    Instead, Mr. Trump summoned Mr. Rosen to the Oval Office the next day. He wanted the Justice Department to file legal briefs supporting his allies’ lawsuits seeking to overturn his election loss. And he urged Mr. Rosen to appoint special counsels to investigate not only unfounded accusations of widespread voter fraud, but also Dominion, the voting machines firm.

    Mr. Rosen refused. He maintained that he would make decisions based on the facts and the law, and he reiterated what Mr. Barr had privately told Mr. Trump: The department had investigated voting irregularities and found no evidence of widespread fraud.

    But Mr. Trump continued to press Mr. Rosen after the meeting — in phone calls and in person. He repeatedly said that he did not understand why the Justice Department had not found evidence that supported conspiracy theories about the election that some of his personal lawyers had espoused. He declared that the department was not fighting hard enough for him.

    As Mr. Rosen and the deputy attorney general, Richard P. Donoghue, pushed back, they were unaware that Mr. Clark had been introduced to Mr. Trump by a Pennsylvania politician and had told the president that he agreed that fraud had affected the election results.

    Mr. Trump quickly embraced Mr. Clark, who had been appointed the acting head of the civil division in September and was also the head of the department’s environmental and natural resources division.

    As December wore on, Mr. Clark mentioned to Mr. Rosen and Mr. Donoghue that he spent a lot of time reading on the internet — a comment that alarmed them because they inferred that he believed the unfounded conspiracy theory that Mr. Trump had won the election. Mr. Clark also told them that he wanted the department to hold a news conference announcing that it was investigating serious accusations of election fraud. Mr. Rosen and Mr. Donoghue rejected the proposal.

    As Mr. Trump focused increasingly on Georgia, a state he lost narrowly to Mr. Biden, he complained to Justice Department leaders that the U.S. attorney in Atlanta, Byung J. Pak, was not trying to find evidence for false election claims pushed by Mr. Trump’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani and others. Mr. Donoghue warned Mr. Pak that the president was now fixated on his office, and that it might not be tenable for him to continue to lead it, according to two people familiar with the conversation.

    That conversation and Mr. Trump’s efforts to pressure Georgia’s Republican secretary of state to “find” him votes compelled Mr. Pak to abruptly resign this month.

    Mr. Clark was also focused on Georgia. He drafted a letter that he wanted Mr. Rosen to send to Georgia state legislators that wrongly said that the Justice Department was investigating accusations of voter fraud in their state, and that they should move to void Mr. Biden’s win there.

    Mr. Rosen and Mr. Donoghue again rejected Mr. Clark’s proposal.

    On New Year’s Eve, the trio met to discuss Mr. Clark’s refusal to hew to the department’s conclusion that the election results were valid. Mr. Donoghue flatly told Mr. Clark that what he was doing was wrong. The next day, Mr. Clark told Mr. Rosen — who had mentored him while they worked together at the law firm Kirkland & Ellis — that he was going to discuss his strategy with the president early the next week, just before Congress was set to certify Mr. Biden’s electoral victory.

    Unbeknown to the acting attorney general, Mr. Clark’s timeline moved up. He met with Mr. Trump over the weekend, then informed Mr. Rosen midday on Sunday that the president intended to replace him with Mr. Clark, who could then try to stop Congress from certifying the Electoral College results. He said that Mr. Rosen could stay on as his deputy attorney general, leaving Mr. Rosen speechless.

    Unwilling to step down without a fight, Mr. Rosen said that he needed to hear straight from Mr. Trump and worked with the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, to convene a meeting for early that evening.

    Even as Mr. Clark’s pronouncement was sinking in, stunning news broke out of Georgia: State officials had recorded an hourlong call, published by The Washington Post, during which Mr. Trump pressured them to manufacture enough votes to declare him the victor. As the fallout from the recording ricocheted through Washington, the president’s desperate bid to change the outcome in Georgia came into sharp focus.

    Mr. Rosen and Mr. Donoghue pressed ahead, informing Steven Engel, the head of the Justice Department’s office of legal counsel, about Mr. Clark’s latest maneuver. Mr. Donoghue convened a late-afternoon call with the department’s remaining senior leaders, laying out Mr. Clark’s efforts to replace Mr. Rosen.

    Mr. Rosen planned to soon head to the White House to discuss his fate, Mr. Donoghue told the group. Should Mr. Rosen be fired, they all agreed to resign en masse. For some, the plan brought to mind the so-called Saturday Night Massacre of the Nixon era, where Attorney General Elliot L. Richardson and his deputy resigned rather than carry out the president’s order to fire the special prosecutor investigating him.

    The Clark plan, the officials concluded, would seriously harm the department, the government and the rule of law. For hours, they anxiously messaged and called one another as they awaited Mr. Rosen’s fate.

    Around 6 p.m., Mr. Rosen, Mr. Donoghue and Mr. Clark met at the White House with Mr. Trump, Mr. Cipollone, his deputy Patrick Philbin and other lawyers. Mr. Trump had Mr. Rosen and Mr. Clark present their arguments to him.

    Mr. Cipollone advised the president not to fire Mr. Rosen and he reiterated, as he had for days, that he did not recommend sending the letter to Georgia lawmakers. Mr. Engel advised Mr. Trump that he and the department’s remaining top officials would resign if he fired Mr. Rosen, leaving Mr. Clark alone at the department.

    Mr. Trump seemed somewhat swayed by the idea that firing Mr. Rosen would trigger not only chaos at the Justice Department, but also congressional investigations and possibly recriminations from other Republicans and distract attention from his efforts to overturn the election results.

    After nearly three hours, Mr. Trump ultimately decided that Mr. Clark’s plan would fail, and he allowed Mr. Rosen to stay.

    Mr. Rosen and his deputies concluded they had weathered the turmoil. Once Congress certified Mr. Biden’s victory, there would be little for them to do until they left along with Mr. Trump in two weeks.

    They began to exhale days later as the Electoral College certification at the Capitol got underway. And then they received word: The building had been breached.

    Maggie Haberman contributed reporting from New York.

    Katie Benner covers the Justice Department. She was part of a team that won a Pulitzer Prize in 2018 for public service for reporting on workplace sexual harassment issues.

  22. #138
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Crazy conspiracy theorists at the NYT...
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    I didn’t see the first week as a dumpster 🔥.

    He did what he said and immediately. Millions voted for him for reasons they support.

    Calling actions dumpster fires because you don’t like it doesn’t make it so because more people want things you don’t want than those who want what you want.

    I’ve personally enjoyed not knowing what Trump thinks every minute of the day.

  24. #140
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: How can Trump-believers be persuaded that he lost an honest election?

    Calling actions dumpster fires because you don’t like it doesn’t make it so because more people want things you don’t want than those who want what you want.
    Or maybe I’m just being facetious to illustrate how hyperbolic language does not further conversation except for some virtual chest-bump shared between like-minded opinion holders.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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