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Thread: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    By the way, you keep saying that you're "so tired". Have you considered napping?
    You want to have an adult conversation or do you want to be a smart ass?
    I read where you have asked the same question and both times it's when you ran out of something substantive to say. Most of the responses have been adult to which you have resorted to "whataboutthisisms" or resorted to personal insults.
    Not sure why you're involving yourself in this...

    Yes, I have said it a few times. I've also said we're arguing in circles. Sphere says I'm beating a dead horse. Perhaps those are indicators that new entrants into the discussion should read the previous 20 or 30 pages of posts. They keep reframing the same questions, and I keep reframing the same answer.

    This thread was actually something substantive, but it's quickly about Trump and conspiracies. Don't we have enough threads on that?

    "Whataboutism" is the new rhetorical device for deflecting hypocrisy when you can't defend it.
    It is actually a tactic used often in your posts where instead of addressing a post made to respond to you, you bring up something else. It is an abbreviation for "oh yeah, what about this?"

    This is a good summation of the past four years....
    "Folks, we just survived something really crazy awful: four years of a president without shame, backed by a party without spine, amplified by a network without integrity, each pumping out conspiracy theories without truth, brought directly to our brains by social networks without ethics — all heated up by a pandemic without mercy."
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/19/o...gtype=Homepage

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill
    It is actually a tactic used often in your posts where instead of addressing a post made to respond to you, you bring up something else. It is an abbreviation for "oh yeah, what about this?"
    Explaining it doesn't change the fact that it's deflection from hypocrisy.

    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?
    B: NO!! FUCK THOSE TRUMPISTS!!! THEY NEED TO SHUT UP AND GET IN LINE FOR THEIR REPROGRAMMING!!!
    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?
    B: OMG!!! WHATABOUTISM!!! THAT DOESN'T MATTER!!!

    Pretty simple.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill
    It is actually a tactic used often in your posts where instead of addressing a post made to respond to you, you bring up something else. It is an abbreviation for "oh yeah, what about this?"
    Explaining it doesn't change the fact that it's deflection from hypocrisy.

    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?
    B: NO!! FUCK THOSE TRUMPISTS!!! THEY NEED TO SHUT UP AND GET IN LINE FOR THEIR REPROGRAMMING!!!
    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?
    B: OMG!!! WHATABOUTISM!!! THAT DOESN'T MATTER!!!

    Pretty simple.
    I empathize with your response. If there was evidence, why was it not investigated? I kept a pretty close tab on the things Trump's personally hired lawyers were suggesting as evidence. It went no where because of the quality of what they provided didn't provoke the courts to act.

    I tried and others responded to your posts when you chose not to respond to ours. What you did respond with could be translated..."oh yeah, what about this". Had you just responded as if you had read the responses you had asked for perhaps some conversation could have taken place.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    You'll have to point out which responses you're talking about. The one about taking a nap? The one about beating a dead horse?

    The main themes have been me posting what the Trump side considers evidence, and a refutation consisting of either "the courts decided" or (insert suspect official) "refuted that already"

    Sprinkle a little random WashPost propaganda and dancing in the end zone from welch, some very good responses from Ray-Vigo; and that's about it.

    Translating my pointing out of hypocrisy as simply "yeah, what about this" is just a variation of the deflection. If people are going to argue absolutist positions centering on "get over it", and ignore that their side didn't (and that was apparently ok), then their objectivity (or lack thereof) is made a little more clear. I have been pointing out that the anti-Trump posters here aren't objective, and can't see that they're not because of TDS or some other bias. The hypocrisy is evidence of that. Uncomfortable for the Trump haters to acknowledge, but there it is.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You'll have to point out which responses you're talking about. The one about taking a nap? The one about beating a dead horse?

    The main themes have been me posting what the Trump side considers evidence, and a refutation consisting of either "the courts decided" or (insert suspect official) "refuted that already"

    Sprinkle a little random WashPost propaganda and dancing in the end zone from welch, some very good responses from Ray-Vigo; and that's about it.

    Translating my pointing out of hypocrisy as simply "yeah, what about this" is just a variation of the deflection. If people are going to argue absolutist positions centering on "get over it", and ignore that their side didn't (and that was apparently ok), then their objectivity (or lack thereof) is made a little more clear. I have been pointing out that the anti-Trump posters here aren't objective, and can't see that they're not because of TDS or some other bias. The hypocrisy is evidence of that. Uncomfortable for the Trump haters to acknowledge, but there it is.
    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.

    If you do, you should be able to simply list documented sources that show an orchestrated effort in which the top of the ticket was changed while leaving the bottom portion as the voter intended which allowed other Republican candidates to win over Democrats. Or, you can show any evidence you prefer, but it needs to be more than suggesting something might exist.

    Also, was there collaboration between states?

    Did you listen to the audio of Trump asking Georgia to find enough votes that would allow his to win? If so, was there a similar request from the Biden campaign? Would you agree that Trump is actuallly asking for dishonest reporting while accusing others of something he was willing to do?

    Just a comment, over the past four years I have seen a consistant erosion of American values with regard to health alliances, minorities, foreigners, economic equality, and a daily barrage of disrupting communication from the former adminsitraton. I personally breathed a sigh of relief yesterday at noon and I have been a registered Republican since Reagan.

    What Biden has done, that any good manager or coach does is to assemble talent. Get the right people on the bus and deligate. What Trump did was to make the job harder than it needed to be, and if I may suggest, it was because he didn't know how to get the right people and he does not trust anyone. Why does he not trust anyone? I suppose he thinks they are the same as he is. Perhaps I have it wrong, but you can correct me if you want.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.
    No Chuck, you're doing it again. You are subtly trying to characterize my argument as if I am asserting that there was fraud. I am asserting that I see why other people think there is. I am asserting that we should probably address their claims rather than ignore them if we want to "heal".

    I have posted videos and links throughout other threads. You are free to browse them if you like. I'm not going to repost them here because you are "giving" me a clean slate. It actually appears to me that you did not bother to give them consideration at the time.

    Just a comment to your comment, the erosion has been going on for much more than four years. If you're breathing a sigh of relief because someone said some words at noon yesterday, you're not paying attention to the larger picture.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    What Biden has done, that any good manager or coach does is to assemble talent. Get the right people on the bus and deligate.
    The right people

    In 1994, Clarke wrote a letter to The Harvard Crimson in her capacity as the president of the Black Students Association to explain her views on race science.

    “Please use the following theories and observations to assist you in your search for truth regarding the genetic differences between Blacks and whites [sic],” Clarke wrote. “One: Dr Richard King reveals that the core of the human brain is the ‘locus coeruleus,’ which is a structure that is Black, because it contains large amounts of neuro-melanin, which is essential for its operation.

    “Two: Black infants sit, crawl and walk sooner than whites [sic]. Three: Carol Barnes notes that human mental processes are controlled by melanin — that same chemical which gives Blacks their superior physical and mental abilities.

    “Four: Some scientists have revealed that most whites [sic] are unable to produce melanin because their pineal glands are often calcified or non-functioning. Pineal calcification rates with Africans are five to 15 percent [sic], Asians 15 to 25 percent [sic] and Europeans 60 to 80 percent [sic]. This is the chemical basis for the cultural differences between blacks and whites [sic].

    “Five: Melanin endows Blacks with greater mental, physical and spiritual abilities — something which cannot be measured based on Eurocentric standards.”


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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.
    No Chuck, you're doing it again. You are subtly trying to characterize my argument as if I am asserting that there was fraud. I am asserting that I see why other people think there is. I am asserting that we should probably address their claims rather than ignore them if we want to "heal".

    I have posted videos and links throughout other threads. You are free to browse them if you like. I'm not going to repost them here because you are "giving" me a clean slate. It actually appears to me that you did not bother to give them consideration at the time.

    Just a comment to your comment, the erosion has been going on for much more than four years. If you're breathing a sigh of relief because someone said some words at noon yesterday, you're not paying attention to the larger picture.
    The claims of fraud have been addressed over and over again. The Trump Campaign had sixty chances to suggest election fraud but failed every time those claims were examined. Re-read the court cases -- there are links to nearly all of them in this section of FPG, and at least one links back to a round-up off all court cases that touch on the November, 2020, election.

    That's the end of it.

    Why were those court cases filed? Why would anyone continue to whine about "election fraud"?

    The one and obvious answer: Donald Trump claimed election fraud all summer. Trump insisted that he would win. Trump seems to have believed his internal polls, although we know that Trump's staffers avoid giving him anything but jolly-jolly news. Trump pumped out nonsense; his cultish followers believe it and repeat it back to him and to his sycophants, leading Trump and sycophants to cry out that "people are saying"...

    It's over.

    If people refuse reality, then they can try to live in a fantasy world. There is no point arguing.

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.
    No Chuck, you're doing it again. You are subtly trying to characterize my argument as if I am asserting that there was fraud. I am asserting that I see why other people think there is. I am asserting that we should probably address their claims rather than ignore them if we want to "heal".

    I have posted videos and links throughout other threads. You are free to browse them if you like. I'm not going to repost them here because you are "giving" me a clean slate. It actually appears to me that you did not bother to give them consideration at the time.

    Just a comment to your comment, the erosion has been going on for much more than four years. If you're breathing a sigh of relief because someone said some words at noon yesterday, you're not paying attention to the larger picture.
    The claims of fraud have been addressed over and over again. The Trump Campaign had sixty chances to suggest election fraud but failed every time those claims were examined. Re-read the court cases -- there are links to nearly all of them in this section of FPG, and at least one links back to a round-up off all court cases that touch on the November, 2020, election.

    That's the end of it.

    Why were those court cases filed? Why would anyone continue to whine about "election fraud"?

    The one and obvious answer: Donald Trump claimed election fraud all summer. Trump insisted that he would win. Trump seems to have believed his internal polls, although we know that Trump's staffers avoid giving him anything but jolly-jolly news. Trump pumped out nonsense; his cultish followers believe it and repeat it back to him and to his sycophants, leading Trump and sycophants to cry out that "people are saying"...

    It's over.

    If people refuse reality, then they can try to live in a fantasy world. There is no point arguing.
    Let me break that down for the reader:

    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?
    B: NO!! FUCK THOSE TRUMPISTS!!! THEY NEED TO SHUT UP AND GET IN LINE FOR THEIR REPROGRAMMING!!!
    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?
    B: OMG!!! WHATABOUTISM!!! THAT DOESN'T MATTER!!!
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

  12. #30
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?

    No, as no evidence has been forwarded of sufficient quality to initiate an investigation. It has been determined time and again by the courts, and is evidenced by the simple fact that in none of the cases has counsel for the plaintiff stepped up and stated clearly that they are pursuing a fraud investigation. Trial by media is not sufficient unto law.

    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?

    Fair is fair? This is not how the system works - essentially saying 'they had an investigation so we are entitled to one too'. The other investigation was predicated on an actual case being brought and charges stated plainly. For the recent election, this hasn't happened - see point above. If a single lawyer had stated plainly in court that they were pursuing a case of electoral fraud, then perhaps there would have been a formal investigation. Bearing in mind that in States were there were questions, or legislation permitted, the local authorities performed all due diligence as required. And also bearing in mind that such cases becoming sub judice would not have satisfied Trump's desire for a public circus.

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?

    No, as no evidence has been forwarded of sufficient quality to initiate an investigation. It has been determined time and again by the courts, and is evidenced by the simple fact that in none of the cases has counsel for the plaintiff stepped up and stated clearly that they are pursuing a fraud investigation. Trial by media is not sufficient unto law.

    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?

    Fair is fair? This is not how the system works - essentially saying 'they had an investigation so we are entitled to one too'. The other investigation was predicated on an actual case being brought and charges stated plainly. For the recent election, this hasn't happened - see point above. If a single lawyer had stated plainly in court that they were pursuing a case of electoral fraud, then perhaps there would have been a formal investigation. Bearing in mind that in States were there were questions, or legislation permitted, the local authorities performed all due diligence as required. And also bearing in mind that such cases becoming sub judice would not have satisfied Trump's desire for a public circus.
    The problem is that you look at the issue from:

    - The perspective of a Trump-hater.
    - Someone with no real understanding of middle-America or the Trump supporter.
    - Someone with no real skin in the game.

    It doesn't surprise me that you arrive at the answer you do, and why you cannot understand the opposing view. The "Trumpist" believes their argument is just as valid as yours (and welch's, Tsherb's, Lloyd's, etc...). None of you can separate the notion of whether or not the argument is valid in truth, vs whether or not the argument is valid in belief. Even more problematic is that you weight "your" evidence to reinforce your belief in your argument. You believe there is sufficient evidence to "prove" your view. They believe there is sufficient evidence to support their view.

    This isn't difficult to understand, if you're not on either "team". The bias is so prevalent here that I'm assumed to be on the pro-Trump team. Several posters (hi Fred) are so rabidly anti-Trump that even contemplating the possibility of an illegitimate election is enough to immediately reduce them to vitriol. All from one person simply pointing out that: "this is what they believe, and this is why".

    Are the Trumpers deranged or delusional? Yeah, some moreso than others. Guess what though, you anti-Trumpers are too.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.
    No Chuck, you're doing it again. You are subtly trying to characterize my argument as if I am asserting that there was fraud. I am asserting that I see why other people think there is. I am asserting that we should probably address their claims rather than ignore them if we want to "heal".

    I have posted videos and links throughout other threads. You are free to browse them if you like. I'm not going to repost them here because you are "giving" me a clean slate. It actually appears to me that you did not bother to give them consideration at the time.

    Just a comment to your comment, the erosion has been going on for much more than four years. If you're breathing a sigh of relief because someone said some words at noon yesterday, you're not paying attention to the larger picture.
    Vidoes and links are not a substitute for substance. I will assume you have nothing evidental to add.

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?

    No, as no evidence has been forwarded of sufficient quality to initiate an investigation. It has been determined time and again by the courts, and is evidenced by the simple fact that in none of the cases has counsel for the plaintiff stepped up and stated clearly that they are pursuing a fraud investigation. Trial by media is not sufficient unto law.

    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?

    Fair is fair? This is not how the system works - essentially saying 'they had an investigation so we are entitled to one too'. The other investigation was predicated on an actual case being brought and charges stated plainly. For the recent election, this hasn't happened - see point above. If a single lawyer had stated plainly in court that they were pursuing a case of electoral fraud, then perhaps there would have been a formal investigation. Bearing in mind that in States were there were questions, or legislation permitted, the local authorities performed all due diligence as required. And also bearing in mind that such cases becoming sub judice would not have satisfied Trump's desire for a public circus.
    The problem is that you look at the issue from:

    - The perspective of a Trump-hater.
    - Someone with no real understanding of middle-America or the Trump supporter.
    - Someone with no real skin in the game.

    It doesn't surprise me that you arrive at the answer you do, and why you cannot understand the opposing view. The "Trumpist" believes their argument is just as valid as yours (and welch's, Tsherb's, Lloyd's, etc...). None of you can separate the notion of whether or not the argument is valid in truth, vs whether or not the argument is valid in belief. Even more problematic is that you weight "your" evidence to reinforce your belief in your argument. You believe there is sufficient evidence to "prove" your view. They believe there is sufficient evidence to support their view.

    This isn't difficult to understand, if you're not on either "team". The bias is so prevalent here that I'm assumed to be on the pro-Trump team. Several posters (hi Fred) are so rabidly anti-Trump that even contemplating the possibility of an illegitimate election is enough to immediately reduce them to vitriol. All from one person simply pointing out that: "this is what they believe, and this is why".

    Are the Trumpers deranged or delusional? Yeah, some moreso than others. Guess what though, you anti-Trumpers are too.
    Is "trumphater" code for people who do not find your posts compelling?

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    At this point, isn't the vote counting moot? A winner has been officially declared and, if the UNITED States will live up to its name, we've got to move forward as one nation. When Trump was sworn in, I swore for a day. Then, I accepted it, supported my country, and hoped that he would outperform my fears.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    A: Shouldn't we at least investigate, given the evidence we have?

    No, as no evidence has been forwarded of sufficient quality to initiate an investigation. It has been determined time and again by the courts, and is evidenced by the simple fact that in none of the cases has counsel for the plaintiff stepped up and stated clearly that they are pursuing a fraud investigation. Trial by media is not sufficient unto law.

    A: We gave Nancy and the Dems their BS investigation though. Fair is fair, isn't it?

    Fair is fair? This is not how the system works - essentially saying 'they had an investigation so we are entitled to one too'. The other investigation was predicated on an actual case being brought and charges stated plainly. For the recent election, this hasn't happened - see point above. If a single lawyer had stated plainly in court that they were pursuing a case of electoral fraud, then perhaps there would have been a formal investigation. Bearing in mind that in States were there were questions, or legislation permitted, the local authorities performed all due diligence as required. And also bearing in mind that such cases becoming sub judice would not have satisfied Trump's desire for a public circus.
    The problem is that you look at the issue from:

    - The perspective of a Trump-hater.
    - Someone with no real understanding of middle-America or the Trump supporter.
    - Someone with no real skin in the game.

    It doesn't surprise me that you arrive at the answer you do, and why you cannot understand the opposing view. The "Trumpist" believes their argument is just as valid as yours (and welch's, Tsherb's, Lloyd's, etc...). None of you can separate the notion of whether or not the argument is valid in truth, vs whether or not the argument is valid in belief. Even more problematic is that you weight "your" evidence to reinforce your belief in your argument. You believe there is sufficient evidence to "prove" your view. They believe there is sufficient evidence to support their view.

    This isn't difficult to understand, if you're not on either "team". The bias is so prevalent here that I'm assumed to be on the pro-Trump team. Several posters (hi Fred) are so rabidly anti-Trump that even contemplating the possibility of an illegitimate election is enough to immediately reduce them to vitriol. All from one person simply pointing out that: "this is what they believe, and this is why".

    Are the Trumpers deranged or delusional? Yeah, some moreso than others. Guess what though, you anti-Trumpers are too.


    I look at this from the perspective of an interested observer. The other labels appear to be an attempt to delegitimize my argument.

    I have no real interest in what people of either stripe 'believe', only in what has been presented as evidence. It is clear - with the caveat that this is based only on information that is in the public domain - that there has been no finding nor revealing of evidence of sufficient import to warrant any further investigation beyond the checks and measures that have already been applied. My conclusion is not biased along any party line and is not 'weighted' in any way other than being based on available data.

    Saying that I have 'no real skin in the game' is a trivialization of the effect of the US elections on future foreign policy, trade or otherwise, that impacts people on the global stage.


    It is disappointing that you, dneal, are persistent in presuming to know better the minds of others, and preface many your remarks with insulting or belittling phrases that do nothing to either move the discussion along or encourage active engagement by others.

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.
    No Chuck, you're doing it again. You are subtly trying to characterize my argument as if I am asserting that there was fraud. I am asserting that I see why other people think there is. I am asserting that we should probably address their claims rather than ignore them if we want to "heal".

    I have posted videos and links throughout other threads. You are free to browse them if you like. I'm not going to repost them here because you are "giving" me a clean slate. It actually appears to me that you did not bother to give them consideration at the time.

    Just a comment to your comment, the erosion has been going on for much more than four years. If you're breathing a sigh of relief because someone said some words at noon yesterday, you're not paying attention to the larger picture.
    Vidoes and links are not a substitute for substance. I will assume you have nothing evidental to add.
    You still ignore the point and argue the straw man. I'm not trying to prove Trump's case. I assume you have nothing substantive to add.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Is "trumphater" code for people who do not find your posts compelling?
    More characterization and pseudo-strawmen. It's quite clear in corniche's thread, for example. Look at the responses to my question about what makes Trump a bad President besides the bombast. I'm wondering if you're intentionally this obtuse.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

  22. #37
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Experts say that conspiracy theorists on any subject typically have done way more research than those who most would say correctly accept facts. As their conspiracies can't be disproven, the believers can always find more correlated information to support their beliefs.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  23. #38
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I look at this from the perspective of an interested observer. The other labels appear to be an attempt to delegitimize my argument.

    Yeah, you have no bias. Wait, what's this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    The ex-President should now be under close watch, in my opinion. Partly to make sure the silverware doesn't go missing, but mainly to prevent him manipulating stuff to avoid getting his just desserts in the months after President-elect Biden's inauguration. Same goes for Bill Barr and a few other associates.
    What exactly are his "just desserts". Actually, don't bother answering. You have anti-Trump bias.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I have no real interest in what people of either stripe 'believe', only in what has been presented as evidence. It is clear - with the caveat that this is based only on information that is in the public domain - that there has been no finding nor revealing of evidence of sufficient import to warrant any further investigation beyond the checks and measures that have already been applied. My conclusion is not biased along any party line and is not 'weighted' in any way other than being based on available data.
    Well, then I don't know why you persist in involving yourself in what I post, because I am addressing precisely what people 'believe' - not what is fact. I highly doubt you have based your opinion on a thorough examination of the "information that is in the public domain". How many court decisions did you read? How many hearings did you watch? How many cites in the Navarro reports did you follow in order to investigate? How many affidavits have you scrutinized?

    That's the biggest point a lot of you have missed. I've looked through a hell of a lot more of the "conspiracy" stuff than you have, and I'm not convinced or harping on it's veracity. I'm simply saying there's a whole lot of shit that would easily persuade someone prone to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Saying that I have 'no real skin in the game' is a trivialization of the effect of the US elections on future foreign policy, trade or otherwise, that impacts people on the global stage.
    LOL. You self-important douchebag (sorry, I just threw that in so you could see what an insulting and belittling remark actually is).

    Seriously though, name 3 ways the riot at the Capitol or the last 48 hours rioting in Portland personally affected you. Sorry buddy, you have no skin in the game. If the U.S. goes to some full blown civil war and destroys the world's economy... ok, you'll have me then.
    Fighting is better than idleness
    -Kurdish proverb

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    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post


    Yeah, you have no bias. Wait, what's this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    The ex-President should now be under close watch, in my opinion. Partly to make sure the silverware doesn't go missing, but mainly to prevent him manipulating stuff to avoid getting his just desserts in the months after President-elect Biden's inauguration. Same goes for Bill Barr and a few other associates.
    What exactly are his "just desserts". Actually, don't bother answering. You have anti-Trump bias.

    The first part is just my opinion, nothing more and clearly stated. The rest is tongue in cheek. I guess you just didn't get it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I have no real interest in what people of either stripe 'believe', only in what has been presented as evidence. It is clear - with the caveat that this is based only on information that is in the public domain - that there has been no finding nor revealing of evidence of sufficient import to warrant any further investigation beyond the checks and measures that have already been applied. My conclusion is not biased along any party line and is not 'weighted' in any way other than being based on available data.
    Well, then I don't know why you persist in involving yourself in what I post, because I am addressing precisely what people 'believe' - not what is fact. I highly doubt you have based your opinion on a thorough examination of the "information that is in the public domain". How many court decisions did you read? How many hearings did you watch? How many cites in the Navarro reports did you follow in order to investigate? How many affidavits have you scrutinized?

    That's the biggest point a lot of you have missed. I've looked through a hell of a lot more of the "conspiracy" stuff than you have, and I'm not convinced or harping on it's veracity. I'm simply saying there's a whole lot of shit that would easily persuade someone prone to belief.

    Deflection and projection. You have no clue about what I may or may not have read/seen or even the quantity. So your appeal to authority falls flat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Saying that I have 'no real skin in the game' is a trivialization of the effect of the US elections on future foreign policy, trade or otherwise, that impacts people on the global stage.
    LOL. You self-important douchebag (sorry, I just threw that in so you could see what an insulting and belittling remark actually is).

    Again, I guess you just don't get it. Two parts: it's insulting and belittling to presume to know what other people in the thread have read or understood. By asserting as much you are attempting to lower their position and raise yours above based on your say so. It's a less direct way of insulting others, but it is an insult nonetheless, and one that you have used extensively throughout this thread. The other part is that you seem to be a bit clueless regarding the impact of US policy-making on the rest of the planet. If you believe that what's happened in the US in the last 4 years and what's going to happen from now are of no consequence or concern to citizens of other nations, then you are seriously missing parts of the puzzle.


    Seriously though, name 3 ways the riot at the Capitol or the last 48 hours rioting in Portland personally affected you. Sorry buddy, you have no skin in the game. If the U.S. goes to some full blown civil war and destroys the world's economy... ok, you'll have me then.
    Selecting local events that clearly have no direct impact globally, though may have longer-term implications in the wider arena, is frankly a bit of a stupid counterargument.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; January 21st, 2021 at 05:27 PM.

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    Lloyd (January 21st, 2021)

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/navarro-report/
    Sounds like a good use of time....
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to Lloyd For This Useful Post:

    Empty_of_Clouds (January 21st, 2021)

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