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Thread: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You're doing it again. Do you have specific evidence that you are able to share that demonstrates the election was dishonest. You can have a clean slate with which to respond.
    No Chuck, you're doing it again. You are subtly trying to characterize my argument as if I am asserting that there was fraud. I am asserting that I see why other people think there is. I am asserting that we should probably address their claims rather than ignore them if we want to "heal".

    I have posted videos and links throughout other threads. You are free to browse them if you like. I'm not going to repost them here because you are "giving" me a clean slate. It actually appears to me that you did not bother to give them consideration at the time.

    Just a comment to your comment, the erosion has been going on for much more than four years. If you're breathing a sigh of relief because someone said some words at noon yesterday, you're not paying attention to the larger picture.
    Vidoes and links are not a substitute for substance. I will assume you have nothing evidental to add.
    You still ignore the point and argue the straw man. I'm not trying to prove Trump's case. I assume you have nothing substantive to add.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Is "trumphater" code for people who do not find your posts compelling?
    More characterization and pseudo-strawmen. It's quite clear in corniche's thread, for example. Look at the responses to my question about what makes Trump a bad President besides the bombast. I'm wondering if you're intentionally this obtuse.
    I'd like to have a nickle for how many times a "whataboutthisism" person says I've ignored something. It is laughable. Thanks for giving me a smile.

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    @dneal

    What made Trump a bad President (aside from the bombast)?

    There are three main areas where I would assess his performance as substandard.

    1. Policy making The majority of his policies, that he put his shoulder to, resulted in negative impact on the average person, the environment, businesses, and foreign relationships. Listing them here is a bit pointless, but we should all be aware of them by now. The people who most benefited were himself and anyone he thought would throw money his way. His least impactful policies are those where the substance of a policy remains more or less the same, but the name has changed. NAFTA is typical example.

    1a. He rolled back or dismissed many of Obama's policies. Often not on their individual merits but rather only on their association with Obama. That is petty, and speaks to a lack of understanding.

    2. His presentation to the public. This is not about bombast, which is used in varying degrees by a lot of people when selling themselves, but rather about his comportment during times and events that required a firm and reassuring hand on the tiller. He was unable to do that because he only has one volume setting. I don't necessarily blame him for not being a more versatile public speaker, but that doesn't give him a pass for not at least employing people who could smooth edges.

    3. Staffing. It's hard to unpick sometimes whether he was just a really bad judge of the people he hired, or if the people hired were actually good at their jobs but were unnaturally restricted, ridiculed and then discarded because of his self-professed expertise in everything. There's a few obvious examples of both.


    Overall, while I dislike his personality, and he cannot be excused for the awful business practices of his past, he is, in my considered opinion, the most corrupt President I've seen in my lifetime.


    If you want to belittle my intelligence, reading ability, or any other of my character defects of which you are aware and I am not, go for it. The simple reality here is that this is a discussion thread for people of disparate backgrounds to talk about current events in US politics.

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  4. #43
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    The first part is just my opinion, nothing more and clearly stated. The rest is tongue in cheek. I guess you just didn't get it.

    Convenient.



    Deflection and projection. You have no clue about what I may or may not have read/seen or even the quantity. So your appeal to authority falls flat.


    Sorry, I didn't make a claim about what you may or may not have read/seen, etc... Note that I simply asked a few questions. We're all about evidence, right? Your claim of deflection is a deflection. p.s.: you don't understand what an appeal to authority. If you do, you can easily name the authority I supposedly appealed to. You say you've studied it. I think you're exaggerating (see, that's nicer than saying full of shit).

    The point, which you ignored in your response (i.e.: deflected), remains. I'm talking about beliefs. If you're not, I don't know why you're arguing with me.


    Again, I guess you just don't get it. Two parts: it's insulting and belittling to presume to know what other people in the thread have read or understood. By asserting as much you are attempting to lower their position and raise yours above based on your say so. It's a less direct way of insulting others, but it is an insult nonetheless, and one that you have used extensively throughout this thread. The other part is that you seem to be a bit clueless regarding the impact of US policy-making on the rest of the planet. If you believe that what's happened in the US in the last 4 years and what's going to happen from now are of no consequence or concern to citizens of other nations, then you are seriously missing parts of the puzzle.

    Pointing out direct evidence of bias is insulting? One may be offended by it, but that's on them.

    "What's happened" in the last four years? It's easy to make hand-wave pronouncements. List it. List the evidence. That's the way we're rolling in the politics forum now, right?

    Anyway, no I'm not missing anything. You just keep deflecting (and strangely blaming me for doing that). I just asked a question, which...

    Selecting local events that clearly have no direct impact globally, though may have longer-term implications in the wider arena, is frankly a bit of a stupid counterargument.[/QUOTE]

    ... you dismiss here. Yeah, more deflection. Good lord you're quite hypocritical about that. I've been answering half a dozen or so posters questions repeatedly for 40+ pages. You won't answer one.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  5. #44
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/navarro-report/
    Sounds like a good use of time....
    I'm sure mediabiasfactcheck is more than sufficient to change people's beliefs.

    #goodluckwithgettingunitythatway
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  6. #45
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    @dneal

    What made Trump a bad President (aside from the bombast)?

    There are three main areas where I would assess his performance as substandard.

    1. Policy making The majority of his policies, that he put his shoulder to, resulted in negative impact on the average person, the environment, businesses, and foreign relationships. Listing them here is a bit pointless, but we should all be aware of them by now. The people who most benefited were himself and anyone he thought would throw money his way. His least impactful policies are those where the substance of a policy remains more or less the same, but the name has changed. NAFTA is typical example.

    1a. He rolled back or dismissed many of Obama's policies. Often not on their individual merits but rather only on their association with Obama. That is petty, and speaks to a lack of understanding.

    2. His presentation to the public. This is not about bombast, which is used in varying degrees by a lot of people when selling themselves, but rather about his comportment during times and events that required a firm and reassuring hand on the tiller. He was unable to do that because he only has one volume setting. I don't necessarily blame him for not being a more versatile public speaker, but that doesn't give him a pass for not at least employing people who could smooth edges.

    3. Staffing. It's hard to unpick sometimes whether he was just a really bad judge of the people he hired, or if the people hired were actually good at their jobs but were unnaturally restricted, ridiculed and then discarded because of his self-professed expertise in everything. There's a few obvious examples of both.


    Overall, while I dislike his personality, and he cannot be excused for the awful business practices of his past, he is, in my considered opinion, the most corrupt President I've seen in my lifetime.


    If you want to belittle my intelligence, reading ability, or any other of my character defects of which you are aware and I am not, go for it. The simple reality here is that this is a discussion thread for people of disparate backgrounds to talk about current events in US politics.
    Thanks. I find it a little lacking on detail and justification, but you can certainly have your opinion.

    I actually think you're quite smart. I'm ok with your quirkiness that others belittle. I'd like to talk. I get tired of the partisan catchphrases. (cue snarky jokes about a nap).
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The first part is just my opinion, nothing more and clearly stated. The rest is tongue in cheek. I guess you just didn't get it.

    Convenient.

    Not convenient, simply a fact.



    Deflection and projection. You have no clue about what I may or may not have read/seen or even the quantity. So your appeal to authority falls flat.


    Sorry, I didn't make a claim about what you may or may not have read/seen, etc... Note that I simply asked a few questions. We're all about evidence, right? Your claim of deflection is a deflection. p.s.: you don't understand what an appeal to authority. If you do, you can easily name the authority I supposedly appealed to. You say you've studied it. I think you're exaggerating (see, that's nicer than saying full of shit).

    The point, which you ignored in your response (i.e.: deflected), remains. I'm talking about beliefs. If you're not, I don't know why you're arguing with me.

    Funny, you say your not making a claim about what I may/may not have read... and go right into "You say you've studied it. I think you're exaggerating". That is hypocrisy. Aside from which I have never said I 'studied' anything. Merely an interested reader.



    Again, I guess you just don't get it. Two parts: it's insulting and belittling to presume to know what other people in the thread have read or understood. By asserting as much you are attempting to lower their position and raise yours above based on your say so. It's a less direct way of insulting others, but it is an insult nonetheless, and one that you have used extensively throughout this thread. The other part is that you seem to be a bit clueless regarding the impact of US policy-making on the rest of the planet. If you believe that what's happened in the US in the last 4 years and what's going to happen from now are of no consequence or concern to citizens of other nations, then you are seriously missing parts of the puzzle.

    Pointing out direct evidence of bias is insulting? One may be offended by it, but that's on them.

    However, you are not pointing out evidence bias, you are asserting that people are biased (your opinion) but you are prefacing your remarks with insulting put-downs, for example "You obviously didn't read beyond page 10", among many others. That's the thing. This would be all more interesting to discuss without all the sniping - and that is something you have done throughout the thread. It's pointless.

    "What's happened" in the last four years? It's easy to make hand-wave pronouncements. List it. List the evidence. That's the way we're rolling in the politics forum now, right?

    We are past list making, we all know what's happened over the last 4 years.

    Anyway, no I'm not missing anything. You just keep deflecting (and strangely blaming me for doing that). I just asked a question, which... Nothing strange about it when you actually do it yourself. Maybe you don't see it?

    Selecting local events that clearly have no direct impact globally, though may have longer-term implications in the wider arena, is frankly a bit of a stupid counterargument.
    ... you dismiss here. Yeah, more deflection. Good lord you're quite hypocritical about that. I've been answering half a dozen or so posters questions repeatedly for 40+ pages. You won't answer one.[/QUOTE]

    This was not deflection. It was obvious that you cherry-picked a highly local event and tried to map that onto what foreign interest there may be in US politics. While there is a connection between that event and an interest from overseas, it is not at the level of that event.

    I've answered the question about why I think the previous incumbent was a bad President. Just a couple of posts up!

    As to whether I have a position on truth vs belief? I suspect there are many people out there who don't know what those words actually mean, and many more who don't know the difference between them. Personally evidence-based truth is best, though I obviously accept that in our lives there are many things we cannot have direct knowledge of, so in those cases I am satisfied with the system that tells me the evidence says it is so. In the case of the election, as stated many times in this thread, there simply isn't enough evidence to have an investigation. There is a system in place for this too, and if the plaintiffs cannot bring anything to the table they can hardly whinge about stolen elections.

    My view on all this is not nuanced at all. The election was free and fair, with the usual statistically insignificant level of abnormalities. Those who believe otherwise need to ask themselves if they honestly know what their own motives are.

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  9. #47
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    @ EOC - forgoing the standard quote convention for colored text makes responding too cumbersome.

    The "abnormalities" in this election were unusual. The numbers the pro-Trump folks cite are statistically significant. I don't know if they're accurate. I don't know if they're just the legitimate result of a lot of mail-in balloting because of covid. I don't know if it's just the Democrats demonstrating their historical capacity to manipulate elections. There's not enough direct evidence to prove fraud. There is enough circumstantial to raise the question.

    If you're going to assert the election was free and fair, with statistically insignificant levels of abnormalities, you incur a burden of proof for that assertion. I'm not asserting it was stolen, so I bear no burden of proof for that. I'm asserting that some people believe it, and have provided ample evidence to prove why they believe it.

    The question isn't whether or not the election was "stolen". The question is how to assuage the concerns of regular people who suspect or believe it was. That's necessary for the unity the current President claims to want. That's necessary for calming the social unrest in the country. You don't have skin in that game at this point.

    I don't know why you won't admit your bias. I'm biased to the Libertarian perspective. Small government, fiscally conservative, socially let people be. It's ok to have a bias. We all do.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    None of what I stated was intended to demonstrate a complete lack of bias. Everyone has biases. If pressed for a label I would probably go for liberalist as being closest. However, I don't consider that my personal bias has any real bearing on my assessment of what has happened in US politics recently.

    If you're going to assert the election was free and fair, with statistically insignificant levels of abnormalities, you incur a burden of proof for that assertion.
    This is incorrect. As I stated before, "I obviously accept that in our lives there are many things we cannot have direct knowledge of, so in those cases I am satisfied with the system that tells me the evidence says it is so"

    Anyway. I have had my say. I haven't tried to hide anything, and have been honest and forthright in my views. I don't think at this point that the discussion is moving in any direction but rather just going in circles.



    Edit: while I may have chosen the label 'liberalist' above, I am not sure that I fit neatly into any category with regard to my general life philosophy. Instead I find my worldview is an amalgam of ideas from many different sources, and that over time my worldview is fluid. Sometimes more and sometimes less. I very much dislike labelling in this fashion, as it feels like it locks one unnecessarily into a specific philosophical framework,
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; January 22nd, 2021 at 02:24 PM.

  11. #49
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    And this is why it's near impossible to have a discussion with you.

    First you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
    My view on all this is not nuanced at all. The election was free and fair, with the usual statistically insignificant level of abnormalities. Those who believe otherwise need to ask themselves if they honestly know what their own motives are.
    Looks like an assertion to me. You even preface it to clarify that there is no nuance. I point out that it bears a burden of proof, to which you respond:

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
    This is incorrect. As I stated before, "I obviously accept that in our lives there are many things we cannot have direct knowledge of, so in those cases I am satisfied with the system that tells me the evidence says it is so"
    What you stated before is quoted, and perfectly clear. What then is incorrect? Your consistency?

    You're not even deflecting anymore. You're weaseling.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    And this is why it's near impossible to have a discussion with you.

    First you say:



    Looks like an assertion to me. You even preface it to clarify that there is no nuance. I point out that it bears a burden of proof, to which you respond:

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
    This is incorrect. As I stated before, "I obviously accept that in our lives there are many things we cannot have direct knowledge of, so in those cases I am satisfied with the system that tells me the evidence says it is so"
    What you stated before is quoted, and perfectly clear. What then is incorrect? Your consistency?

    You're not even deflecting anymore. You're weaseling.

    And you are trying to create an argument where none exists. The two statements of mine you quoted are linked, which should be obvious to even the most obtuse of observers. I'll state it directly" My opinion is that the elections were free and fair, and this view is based on both data I have been able to personally access and (and this is an important facet) my tacit acceptance that the systems in situ for determining the integrity of the election are robust.

    There is no burden of proof on me. The burden of proof rests with the accuser. As has been stated and restated ad nauseum throughout this thread, the plaintiff never presented a case of sufficient quality to prompt an investigation beyond that of the inbuilt checks and balances.

    Overall, I am satisfied with the outcome, and have yet to see anything that would give me pause.

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Just for me, Biden appears to be the kind of person that I could relate. Not so with Trump. Each of us has to decide. What I mean is, If you disagree it might not be applicable to anyone else.

    Biden has experienced some difficult events which would be for me the ultimate. I cannot imagine experiencing the death of a child.

  15. #52
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post


    And you are trying to create an argument where none exists. The two statements of mine you quoted are linked, which should be obvious to even the most obtuse of observers. I'll state it directly" My opinion is that the elections were free and fair, and this view is based on both data I have been able to personally access and (and this is an important facet) my tacit acceptance that the systems in situ for determining the integrity of the election are robust.

    There is no burden of proof on me. The burden of proof rests with the accuser. As has been stated and restated ad nauseum throughout this thread, the plaintiff never presented a case of sufficient quality to prompt an investigation beyond that of the inbuilt checks and balances.

    Overall, I am satisfied with the outcome, and have yet to see anything that would give me pause.
    More weaseling. Let's look again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
    As to whether I have a position on truth vs belief? I suspect there are many people out there who don't know what those words actually mean, and many more who don't know the difference between them. Personally evidence-based truth is best, though I obviously accept that in our lives there are many things we cannot have direct knowledge of, so in those cases I am satisfied with the system that tells me the evidence says it is so. In the case of the election, as stated many times in this thread, there simply isn't enough evidence to have an investigation. There is a system in place for this too, and if the plaintiffs cannot bring anything to the table they can hardly whinge about stolen elections.

    Here you are talking in the abstract. You pontificate. I'm fine with all that.

    My view on all this is not nuanced at all. The election was free and fair, with the usual statistically insignificant level of abnormalities. Those who believe otherwise need to ask themselves if they honestly know what their own motives are.

    Here you begin a new paragraph. Separate paragraphs are to separate ideas. You move from the abstract or general contemplation of truth, facts, opinions, etc... to your specific "view". Without any nuance, you make a plain statement. You even insinuate that those who believe otherwise do not know their own motive (that's a Freudian slip, perhaps).
    Own your statement. Own the burden of proof you voluntarily incurred. I won't question what you did or didn't examine, you can easily demonstrate that. Admit that you misspoke if you wish, but don't try to pretend you didn't post what you clearly posted. We both know better.

    I suspect you'll triple-down on your dishonesty, just as you deny your bias.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    I've already owned my statements (as I always do). You seem to have some difficulty in accepting that. Your problem.

    I have also not denied my own bias - in fact in my last post I spoke specifically about it - so your statement suggests you just didn't read it or that you have a hard time (again) accepting that I did indeed mention it.

    There is no burden of proof that I, personally, have to provide. There is nothing that I, personally, have to demonstrate. I am neither the defendant nor the plaintiff in these matters, merely an observer. What I have observed satisfies me and allows me to come to a conclusion. If there was a shred of credible evidence then I am satisfied that the plaintiffs would have presented it. They haven't, so I must conclude that there isn't any. It's a fairly simple logic.

    There is nothing dishonest in what I have said in this thread. What is dishonest is you trying to twist what other people say in order to validate your need to argue about it. There comes a point where one has to understand that the conversation is going nowhere. This one has reached that point - arguably it reached that point very much earlier in the thread, but, inertia and all that.

  17. #54
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I've already owned my statements (as I always do). You seem to have some difficulty in accepting that. Your problem.

    I have also not denied my own bias - in fact in my last post I spoke specifically about it - so your statement suggests you just didn't read it or that you have a hard time (again) accepting that I did indeed mention it.

    There is no burden of proof that I, personally, have to provide. There is nothing that I, personally, have to demonstrate. I am neither the defendant nor the plaintiff in these matters, merely an observer. What I have observed satisfies me and allows me to come to a conclusion. If there was a shred of credible evidence then I am satisfied that the plaintiffs would have presented it. They haven't, so I must conclude that there isn't any. It's a fairly simple logic.

    There is nothing dishonest in what I have said in this thread. What is dishonest is you trying to twist what other people say in order to validate your need to argue about it. There comes a point where one has to understand that the conversation is going nowhere. This one has reached that point - arguably it reached that point very much earlier in the thread, but, inertia and all that.
    Keep weaseling. You're right though, there does come a point where a conversation is going nowhere, and it was earlier in the thread. I'm pretty sure I identified it in post 49 when you started being dishonest.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I've already owned my statements (as I always do). You seem to have some difficulty in accepting that. Your problem.

    I have also not denied my own bias - in fact in my last post I spoke specifically about it - so your statement suggests you just didn't read it or that you have a hard time (again) accepting that I did indeed mention it.

    There is no burden of proof that I, personally, have to provide. There is nothing that I, personally, have to demonstrate. I am neither the defendant nor the plaintiff in these matters, merely an observer. What I have observed satisfies me and allows me to come to a conclusion. If there was a shred of credible evidence then I am satisfied that the plaintiffs would have presented it. They haven't, so I must conclude that there isn't any. It's a fairly simple logic.

    There is nothing dishonest in what I have said in this thread. What is dishonest is you trying to twist what other people say in order to validate your need to argue about it. There comes a point where one has to understand that the conversation is going nowhere. This one has reached that point - arguably it reached that point very much earlier in the thread, but, inertia and all that.
    Keep weaseling. You're right though, there does come a point where a conversation is going nowhere, and it was earlier in the thread. I'm pretty sure I identified it in post 49 when you started being dishonest.
    Good deflection for having to provide a reply with substance. This is why your're number one on the ignore lists.!!!

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Indeed. The conversation about election fraud is dead.

    Based on his insistence that there are grounds for an investigation into the election, and the general combative tone that appends to every single post dneal writes, it easy to conclude that he is a Trumper. Now whether that is true, or whether he is projecting that persona for another reason, I do not know, but that is the image he has projected here whether he likes/agrees with it or not. He does not get to choose how other people perceive him. Furthermore, much of the flavour of his arguments remind me of John Brennan, and to a lesser extent Mike Pompeo.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; January 22nd, 2021 at 05:01 PM.

  20. #57
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    *yawn*
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    Good deflection for having to provide a reply with substance. This is why your're number one on the ignore lists.!!!
    And the hall monitor version of Chuck is back. You just can't help being the bossy little sister and involving yourself, can you?

    BTW, I thought you were pro-empathy and anti-insults? You're such a hypocrite.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    It is time for the adults to leave this sandbox so Mr. Neal can play by himself.

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    azkid (February 15th, 2021)

  24. #60
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Americans see democracy under threat — CBS News poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    It is time for the adults to leave this sandbox so Mr. Neal can play by himself.
    Three weeks have gone by, and that's what you stop by to post?

    Do you also like nails?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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