Vaccine question

[Chuck Naill]

They can't conceive of independent thought. Anyway, the right is just as rabid and absurd; and were they here I would be a "leftie" or "progressive".

Seriously, this IS absurd! You can't even ask a question anymore. I clearly stated I am not decided yet, I'm just ASKING. You HAVE to belong to one side or the other and you must never, ever, even for a second, just ask a question. Both sides have pre-prepared answers to everything and you MUST conform to each and every narrative in everything pertaining to your life.

In my country, our president is a puppet, he's worthless, just a person to travel around and look nice with other leaders. Our president has NO power, absolutely NONE. We have a parliament and the parliament will typically consist of 6-7 political parties. So there's no bipartisanship, every elections you get a pamphlet and all of the political parties (~13-14 of them, typically) have their political plans lined out in there, typically these vary quite a lot in viewpoints and thoughts on various topics. Then you vote for the party you identify the most with. The party that gets the most votes gets first chance to form a coalition, but it has never happened that a single party would be able to do so on their own, as the coalition must be majority (>50% of the votes). Right now, 4 different political parties from a variety of political spectrum barely got together a majority coalition (>50%), and then there's 3-4 political parties that assembled "opposition".

This "us vs them" mentality is absolutely INSANE.

And even then, I do not understand why a person would idiolize a politician. He's a PUBLIC SERVANT and I'm paying for HIS salary. I'm his boss, not the other way around, and to even think for a second it's the other way around is such an absolutely alien concept to me.

He did respond to your questions. I read his reply.

[TSherbs]

Adhoc, vaccination helps even the young and healthy become seriously ill LESS OFTEN than those who are not vaccinated. In my country, those persons of your cohort (young, not vulnerable) who actually have been hospitalized are nearly all unvaccinated. It is just not true that vaccination "does nothing" even for healthy cohorts.

I keep saying do what you want. But you put your reasoning out here for comment, and you have begun whining about the responses. I have said three times now that you are free to decide what you want. So don't start whining again about group think or coersion or whatever. I simply think that you are in error in denying the efficacy of the vaccine, for all age groups thus far who have used it. Yes, some groups are at low risk. But none is at zero, and if the vaccine improves your cohort's predicted protection (even if at low risk to begin with), why not take it? IT WILL HELP THE ODDS THAT YOU STAY OUT OF THE HOSPITAL.



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[Chuck Naill]

I’ve had three family members test positive including my daughter in law with mild symptoms. Her sister had it and was in and out of the hospital for weeks and is now one of the long haulers.

No one really knows who will be one of those who get really sick although age and co-morbidities play a role.

I had a tick bite in 2015 with symptoms lasting into the 3rd year. Not everyone has my experience.

So, if all I have to do it get stuck, and it’s free, what rational reason is there to avoid? This is what has me scratching my head.

[adhoc]

I’ve had three family members test positive including my daughter in law with mild symptoms. Her sister had it and was in and out of the hospital for weeks and is now one of the long haulers.

No one really knows who will be one of those who get really sick although age and co-morbidities play a role.

I had a tick bite in 2015 with symptoms lasting into the 3rd year. Not everyone has my experience.

So, if all I have to do it get stuck, and it’s free, what rational reason is there to avoid? This is what has me scratching my head.

Ticks can be extremely nasty. They can put you in coma, can kill you, can give you brain swelling, ... My country has one of the highest forest coverage in Europe and some of the most ticks per capita in the world. Vaccines against ticks (there are two diseases, I don't know what they're called in English) are extremely common. My employer paid those vaccines for me at our regular health checkup.

If a vaccine does nothing for you, then why would you take it? Again, would you take a vaccine against malaria?

Adhoc, vaccination helps even the young and healthy become seriously ill LESS OFTEN than those who are not vaccinated. In my country, those persons of your cohort (young, not vulnerable) who actually have been hospitalized are nearly all unvaccinated. It is just not true that vaccination "does nothing" even for healthy cohorts.

Right, almost all of them are unvaccinated, I believe that. But here's the thing: how many <40s that aren't obese or have other serious medical conditions had issues? I can tell you about my country, we're very pedantic with tracking data, not a single under 40 year old has been hospitalized for COVID without having some serious other issues (cancer patient, obesity, organ transplants, etc.).

I don't know why I wouldn't take the third shot, I probably will anyway (I'm 70-80% about it), but that doesn't mean I can't think about it anymore.

Did you read the linked post by an ICU nurse? I know you’re upset with me, but read it because it’s applicable.

No, we don’t go along to get along. And, yes politics is at the heart of why some have refused masks, social distance, and vaccines. The politicians know they will get the best care if they test positive, aka Trump’s own hospital experience is an example.
We have governors refusing funding if schools require masks.

It’s not strange in comparison to other cultures. We just have the freedom to express ourselves.

You're making all kind of assumptions about me. I'm just thinking out loud here "what is the point?". From this, you deduced I don't wear a mask (I do, religiously almost even, always and everywhere). You deduced I'm a Trump supporter, that I need to read about insane people who fanatically believe COVID is a lie, etc. I understand our interactions are skewed because we've been limited to online for past 2 years and all online discourse is on a lower level as personal, but god damn, this is a lot. I know there are insane people out there. My question is really very simple, it has no hidden meaning, I have no agenda, I'm really quite sane.

What is there in it for me? For example, when I got my first shots, I got it to protect others around me. That was a good enough reason for me. But since this reason seems to be out of the window (the research is not yet peer reviewed though!), I'm thinking about what's the point. That's all.

[TSherbs]

Right, almost all of them are unvaccinated, I believe that. But here's the thing: how many <40s that aren't obese or have other serious medical conditions had issues? I can tell you about my country, we're very pedantic with tracking data, not a single under 40 year old has been hospitalized for COVID without having some serious other issues (cancer patient, obesity, organ transplants, etc.).

This is not true in our country, where the data set is MUCH larger, nor elsewhere in the world:

Data from one study shows that of more than 3,000 adults ages 18 to 34 who contracted COVID-19 and became sick enough to require hospital care, 21% ended up in intensive care, 10% were placed on a breathing machine and 2.7% died.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2770542

https://www.paho.org/en/news/5-5-2021-hospitalizations-and-deaths-younger-people-soar-due-covid-19-paho-director-reports

Although these accounts/reports do not always make clear how many of the groups in question had no other health issues (many do), clearly not ALL of them do. And so, many many "healthy" young people have been getting very sick elsewhere in the world, if not in your country.

Like I said, maybe your community has been lucky. Mine has been lucky, but "luck" is not a great health strategy. But you are free to do as you wish.

[Chuck Naill]

@adhoc, everything I write is not directed at you. I am trying to explain my reasoning.

Regarding ticks, Rocky Mountain and Lyme from Deer Tick were what I was tested for with negative results. I never took any after an intial course of doxicycline.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

There's no point using malaria as a counter example. For one, there isn't an effective vaccine yet, and for two it's not a global issue yet (maybe after the planet warms up a bit). So, no, if a malaria vaccine was available I wouldn't find it necessary right now because I live in a country where malaria isn't an issue. However, if that changed or when I am travelling to a country where malaria is rife then yes I am going to take whatever is available to protect myself from the worst ravages of the infection.

The history of vaccines is well known, getting quite long, and shows remarkable success in protecting populations and at times even effectively making some infectious diseases extinct, like polio.

Covid-19 is here and it's here now. There is no reliable prediction model for how an individual will react to exposure, with responses ranging anywhere between no symptoms and death. Likelihood of worse symptoms are higher in those with compromised immune systems. Transmission is rapid, especially for the d-variant. The current crop of vaccines significantly reduce the likelihood of an infection taking hold, and significantly reduce the severity of symptoms if you're unlucky enough to be a breakthrough case - all according to expert sources (CDC, WHO, NFID etc.) and not opinions.

With the last paragraph in mind it would seem to be a no-brainer that everyone who can should get vaccinated.

[TSherbs]

Adhoc seems to have parsed his own case down to a sub-cohort of healthy young people for whom the vaccine has "no efficacy whatsoever" (this is, of course, false-- the vaccines have been shown to reduce illness in all age groups). His rational seems based on the information that not a single "healthy" sub-40 yr old in his country has been hospitalized. That is, of course, not true for the rest of the world. I recommended that he see the efficacy of the vaccine from a broader sample cohort, but, whatever. Maybe he'll take his chances. He is certainly not the only one doing so (hospitals have been filling up with these chancers here in the US). Actually, the original question was only about the booster. Why anyone wouldn't follow up with a free booster is beyond me--unless they have had a history of adverse reactions with greater risks than the disease. Which he has not attested to.

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[Empty_of_Clouds]

The other thing that baffles me is that every medical intervention - surgical, pharmaceutical and so on - carries the risk of an adverse event, and yet people are being picky over the vaccines while simultaneously shovelling other medications in or having other medical procedures without qualm.

[adhoc]

The point of malaria wasn't that malaria is comparable to covid, but just an example of a vaccine you don't really need. Feel free to substitute it with any other vaccine you have never gotten and the point stands.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I have both gotten covid and am fully vaccinated against it. I really don't think the answer to needing the booster is as clear as you think it is. My final decision will anyway fall based on my personal doctor advice, as I trust her.

EoC: I always think about medications and procedures, as I know they can all leave side effects, and choose depending on risk/reward ratio.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Unfortunately the Covid vaccine is very much needed.

As for boosters... If the evidence says the booster is not needed (i.e. does not provide any additional benefit) then I imagine that govt will not promote it, but until then as the risk of adverse events with vaccines tends to be vanishingly small I will take the booster.

My final decision will be based on what the authorities advise. My GP is hardly an authority on infectious diseases. Perhaps yours is.


I mean no disrespect by saying any of this, simply expressing how I feel (strongly as it happens) about vaccinations. If it hadn't been for that complete criminal dickhead Andrew Wakefield, and the subsequent uptake by the conspiracy arseholes, we wouldn't be in this situation where ordinary members of the public believe that reading stuff on the internet makes them experts on almost any subject without qualification. This is particularly insidious with health and wellbeing, probably because we are so interested in ourselves. You don't tend to see someone take their car to the garage with a problem and say 'I've done my research, I think it's the cam belt and I recommend this solution', and yet they feel quite justified in doing this with their healthcare practitioners. Quite baffling and disturbing.

[adhoc]

Right, I agree with what you wrote. But my question was about the booster shot, not vaccines in general. And it's really not as clear cut as people here state it is. Only a month ago, WHO and CDC and ECDC were against booster shots. They're still not approved in my country. I believe USA now has approved booster shots only very recently; few days ago or so.

In my country booster shots were so far given only to a dozen or so severely immunocompromised hospital patients, noone else.

By February, when I'll be eligible for a booster shot, these questions will likely be ironed out.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Quite, agreed.

As I stated before, I will take (or not) the booster shot under advisement from the relevant authorities.

[TSherbs]

Part of the national decision-making about approving booster shots is governed by how many doses are still available for the unvaccinated. The question then also becomes how is the general population best served if the vaccine supply is limited.

[Chuck Naill]

Yesterday, in the US ,I vaguely remember hearing one millon Americans were vaccinated. I think folks are finally realizing something, but I am not sure what. Maybe they are listening to the experts and noticing that doing nothing is not rational.

I agree and I've mentioned the damage Wakefield did regarding vaccines, but what's really sad is that most are too lazy to followup and know his information was invalid.

Thank you @empty_of_clouds for your perspective.

[adhoc]

Wakefield is a particularly disgusting figure. Hbomberguy did an amazing video, but it's long. Nearly a full feature length video, but I took the time to watch it. It's really unbelievable. Wakefield in the end tortured children, some handicapped for life, to prove (which he couldn't so he just faked data in the end) his statements. I think majority of people don't know even 10% of what this guy did.

As said, the video is long, but I really enjoyed it. I don't particularly like hbomberguy, he's quite suggestive in his statements and not at all impartial, but all of the data presented is researched and sourced.

https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc

Just for information, in my country it's the left wing that is antivax, and right wing is mostly vaccinated. That said, left and right have a substantially different meaning here than it does in USA, but I think the information might be interesting anyway. Basically the left think it's unfreedom like, and the right take it as their patriotic duty to their country and fellow countrymen.

[TSherbs]

Yesterday, in the US ,I vaguely remember hearing one millon Americans were vaccinated. I think folks are finally realizing something, but I am not sure what.

"Oh, shit, this virus might actually hurt *me*"

or

"Gee, I guess the vaccine actually does what the trials suggested it would do."

[Chuck Naill]

Yesterday, in the US ,I vaguely remember hearing one millon Americans were vaccinated. I think folks are finally realizing something, but I am not sure what.

"Oh, shit, this virus might actually hurt *me*"

or

"Gee, I guess the vaccine actually does what the trials suggested it would do."

There has to be some of that behind the surge to get vaccinated. Perhaps some are thinking of the greater good. Maybe others are thinking that the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk of contracting COVID-19. Who knows why humanity acts at it does.

[TSherbs]

News item on Facebook article about Dr's death and possible influence of social media on vaccine doubt:
NPR: Facebook's Most Viewed Article In Early 2021 Raised Doubt About COVID Vaccine.
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/21/10300...t=nprml&f=1006

All that matters is clicks and views.

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[TSherbs]

And now Phil Valentine has also died.

USA TODAY: Phil Valentine, Tennessee radio host who was a vaccine skeptic, dies of COVID at 61.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...id/8234158002/

Get vaccinated, folks. And don't suggest to other people not to.

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