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Thread: Vaccine question

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Notice the word "may" in the concluding lines. In all else, causation in language is avoided.

    That's proper scientific professionalism at this point, not "religion" (that's a dumb thing to call the understanding of the difference between possible correlation and causation).

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Here's a USA Today fact check on thrombosis claims, dated March 25:

    >>>"Vaccines are not known to cause blood clots although there have been cases of immune thrombocytopenia, a rare condition marked by low platelets, following vaccination with Moderna's and Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccines. Whether there is an actual connection is still under investigation and will be closely monitored as vaccination with AstraZeneca's vaccine resumes."<<<

    Again, too early to tell, no increase in incidence rate, no clear causation or even correlation yet (since incidence rates are at or below what is found in general population).

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ed/4721828001/

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    I can't find any published article or report through my google searches on this cause or mechanism that Adhoc says is all over the news. There are lots of articles on people who developed clots (especially from two weeks ago), but I can't find anything through my searches for an actual scientific report on "triggers" or causes (nor can I find even an explanatory article naming some scientists who did the work or wrote the explanation).

    Since Adhoc is gone, maybe someone else can find something. I would like to read whatever it is (although I can only read English).

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Well, you can post a link to the study. Or you can go away.
    With a tone like that, I kinda think you’re the one that should go away... not the type of response that encourages civil discourse...


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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    I was accused of being a pro-vax zealot (which is false), and I was accused of not being interested in making an effort to find the "data" that he/she said was "everywhere" (this too was false, on both counts: I have tried more than once and I can't find "data" anywhere!)

    I was simply stating the binary choice system that Adhoc seemed to be operating in (to stay, or go).

    So, do you, by any chance, have any info to share on the AZ vax and blood clot possible connection? The article that Adhoc linked to is about a professor who looked at three cases and concluded from this that there must be causal linkage because (1) the patients had no prior symptoms, and (2) the clots were in less typical locations.

    I don't find this argument convincing. And this isn't even really an argument on "data". This is speculation. Which was my point from the start. For which I was accused of being a lazy, pro-vax zealot. That's really laughably wrong.

    It's really important to get the science around vaccines right. I am trying to get it right, here, and have even asked for help with finding more info.

    Do you, by any chance, have any more info on the AZ vax? I am in the middle of two Moderna shots, but there are other members here who could benefit from full and accurate information.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Interesting. I can definitely understand how immune thrombocytopenia might be a problem, because many viruses can cause immune thrombocytopenia. I mean the viruses themselves. And just because you have a viral infection does not mean you will have thrombocytopenia. Some HLA haplotypes are associated with greater risk, but HLA haplotypes are a study all unto themselves. Okay, well, anyways. I'm not surprised that some vaccines, particularly vaccines against viruses might have the same effect.

    As far as thrombosis goes, the COVID-19 spike protein is implicated in hypercoagulability/thrombosis. However, that's only implicated at this point. It's not confirmed yet, and it could just be random chance. COVID-19 itself is definitely associated with hypercoagulability.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by TFarnon View Post
    Interesting. I can definitely understand how immune thrombocytopenia might be a problem, because many viruses can cause immune thrombocytopenia. I mean the viruses themselves. And just because you have a viral infection does not mean you will have thrombocytopenia. Some HLA haplotypes are associated with greater risk, but HLA haplotypes are a study all unto themselves. Okay, well, anyways. I'm not surprised that some vaccines, particularly vaccines against viruses might have the same effect.

    As far as thrombosis goes, the COVID-19 spike protein is implicated in hypercoagulability/thrombosis. However, that's only implicated at this point. It's not confirmed yet, and it could just be random chance. COVID-19 itself is definitely associated with hypercoagulability.
    Interesting indeed. And what you have added here matches with the cursory readings I have done on the topic (this is not at all my field).

    And good luck with your own pursuits for the vaccine and immunity. I, too, always get the flu vaccine (and others), because when I get sick, I tend to get really sick. And missing work sucks, and I am over 60 years old, and I work in crowds (teacher) etc, etc.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by TFarnon View Post
    I've already had both my COVID shots (Moderna). I was in the Army, and I got all kinds of shots, some of them trials.

    My military service experience merely made me extremely blase about other vaccines. I would prefer to never get the injected Typhoid vaccine ever again, because it was the worst of what I've ever had, but if Typhoid was a real concern in my life, I'd put up with it. I still want Anthrax and Rabies shots. I'd also had a lot more vaccinations than usual because my family traveled internationally when I was a child. I've come to regard vaccinations as sort of a hobby--I call it my "Human Pincushion Collection" and consider my yellow shot record booklet analogous to the little notebooks used by trainspotters.

    I also worked in research doing molecular biology for 9 years. Part of that work involved making mRNA the same way they do it for the vaccine, except on a much smaller scale. I also used a transfection reagent, Lipofectamine, that is essentially the same as the lipid delivery system used in the vaccine. And yes, I know I got that stuff on my exposed skin from time to time. I'm definitely familiar with and not afraid of the technology involved.

    My main reason for getting the COVID vaccine was that I knew it could be worse than influenza. I've had influenza more than once, sometimes because the vaccine wasn't a good match to the circulating strain(s), and sometimes because it was before the era of widespread influenza vaccination. My tangles with influenza have been pretty bad, and I'll do almost anything to avoid it. So, if COVID has the potential to be worse than influenza, the only question was how many people would I knock over in my enthusiasm to be vaccinated. I want no part of feeling as ill as or worse than influenza, not now, not ever.
    Typhoid sucked, Gamma globulin freaking hurt, Anthrax just makes your arms hurt, and the rabies is the coolest color ever, but it made me so sick the first day (9 shots in the Base hospital ER). Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookedj View Post

    Typhoid sucked, Gamma globulin freaking hurt, Anthrax just makes your arms hurt, and the rabies is the coolest color ever, but it made me so sick the first day (9 shots in the Base hospital ER). Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.
    Take care and good luck to you and your family!

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    "KEY FACTS
    Scientists at Greifswald University Hospital said in a statement Friday that in rare instances, the vaccine has created an antibody that triggered the formation of blood clots in the brain.

    The findings confirm those from an independent team in Norway earlier this week.

    Isolating the cause has allowed scientists to identify how to treat patients who have developed the blood clots, by giving them intravenous immunoglobulin, which targets the antibody, and blood thinners.

    CRUCIAL QUOTE
    “Very, very few people will develop this complication,” Professor Andreas Greinacher said in a press conference Friday, according to the Wall Street Journal. “But if it happens, we now know how to treat the patients.”

    Easy, bam, done. 1 minute of search. I got the names, the hospital, the research, everything.

    There's a slim possibility that there is no causation, but the correlation clearly exists.

    No peer reviewed article yet of course, because that takes time and this is new info. As someone who publishes patents and research myself, I know this takes sometimes even years to get published, so just because it's not peer reviewed it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

    Another stupid argument I see repeated is that it happens less than in general population, which is obviously deceitful for anyone that has at least elementary school finished; blood clots are overrepresented within a very specific group; women aged 30-55. Compare this group to general occurence of blood clots in the same group, and scale for observed time and you will see it's over-represented. A single batch caused 3 young, healthy people to die in Italy alone.

    But hey, you can cover your eyes, twist the numbers and statistically and technically be correct.

    Canada has also banned the AZ vaccine now as well for under 55s: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other...55/ar-BB1f7dZL
    Although this probably also didn't happen, even if it is reported again everywhere on this planet, I guess.

    I'm personally hoping for J&J to pull through, and we're not getting AZ 2nd shot, as our experience (early 30s) was frightening and spent in the emergency room.

    Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.
    I wish you good luck and all the best to your family. Please also pay attention for several months after getting through it - multiple internal organ failures have been reported in my country especially typical for kids after COVID. Pay attention for skin abnormalities around feet (bruise like markings). This probably also doesn't exist, but our hospitals urged us to pay attention. No peer reviewed article, though, so it never happened. Kids after covid have similiar multiple internal organ failures as general population, so it's normal :-)

    Last edited by adhoc; March 30th, 2021 at 06:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    I didn't think Gamma globulin (or any other viscous injection in the glutes) hurt. When I did intramuscular depo-provera shots on myself, in the upper thing, they kind of hurt for a couple of hours, but not even so much hurt as the kind of discomfort where you don't want to slam into something with that part of your thigh. Intramuscular depo-provera didn't hurt, intramuscular gamma-globulin (one jab per cheek) didn't hurt. Those people I know who received anthrax shots were all UK scientists, not military. They simply fussed about it because the vaccine cart would come through the labs on a Friday and then by the time the day was over, they didn't feel well enough to head to the pub. Cue tiny violins. Rabies is bright pink or red, right?

    If you had post-exposure rabies shots, it was probably the immune globulin usually injected around the bite site (that usually happens in the ER, and usually multiple jabs) that made you feel so awful. It's an artefact of the manufacturing process, because the globulin has to be purified from a lot of rabies-immune donors in order to get enough to have an effect. AS the number of donors for a given biological product like that increase, the chances of your own immune system reacting to the product also increase. It's one of the reason blood suppliers in the United States no longer offer pooled platelets or pooled fresh frozen plasma. In order to get enough cryoprecipitate to do anyone any good, that product still has to be pooled, but from as few (usually 5) donors as possible. Things like anti-rabies immunoglobulin and RhoGam still require a whole lot of donors for one dose, which makes them inherently riskier products that should never be given "just because". That said, an animal bite or bat exposure is not "Just because". Then the risks of rabies far outweigh the risks of (relatively) mild reactions.

    If you are young enough, healthy enough, and up for donating/selling your plasma, you might want to look into doing so. It's my understanding that people with a nice rabies titer can sell their plasma for a premium.

    I can be reasonably certain that I neither had COVID nor have it at present. I tend to build and retain sturdy immunity to anything I've received as a vaccine, and do the same if I've had the actual disease (e.g. mumps, rubella, chickenpox).

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    I would want to know more about the women aged 30-55 who developed clots after this vaccine was administered. At that point in my life, at least from age 45 to 50, I was on medroxyprogesterone (Depo-Provera) to regulate my reproductive system. The risk of this is that progesterone down-regulates the production of Anti-Thrombin III (AT3), which makes these women inherently more likely to have inappropriate clotting (hypercoagulability). That is true of any woman on any progesterone-containing birth control, whether it's injections, things like Nuvaring, or oral contraceptives. I was lucky that I didn't throw clots while on medroxyprogesterone. And, since I was in a laboratory science training program at the time, I got to see that reduction in AT3 in my own blood first-hand. The results were disturbingly spectacular. I joked that if I were to sever an appendage in an accident, that the wound would have stopped spurting and bleeding before they could even get a tourniquet out to apply it.

    So anyways--unless someone already is at risk of hypercoagulability due to genetics, medications or lifestyle choices, the odds of inappropriate coagulation due to a COVID vaccine go down, just as they do overall. I can also tell you, because I see it on a regular basis, that severe COVID is frequently accompanied by hypercoagulability. When I see a sample for platelet mapping (a test that measures platelet function and how those platelets interact with coagulation factors in the blood), if the entry contains certain key terms and comes from certain wards, I automatically expect to see certain features consistent with that hypercoagulability.

    I can also tell you that the heel bruising seen there is consistent with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC). That's also a feature of severe COVID, as well as many other infections, including bacterial sepsis from all kinds of organisms.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    "KEY FACTS
    Scientists at Greifswald University Hospital said in a statement Friday that in rare instances, the vaccine has created an antibody that triggered the formation of blood clots in the brain.

    The findings confirm those from an independent team in Norway earlier this week.

    Isolating the cause has allowed scientists to identify how to treat patients who have developed the blood clots, by giving them intravenous immunoglobulin, which targets the antibody, and blood thinners.

    CRUCIAL QUOTE
    “Very, very few people will develop this complication,” Professor Andreas Greinacher said in a press conference Friday, according to the Wall Street Journal. “But if it happens, we now know how to treat the patients.”

    Easy, bam, done. 1 minute of search. I got the names, the hospital, the research, everything.

    There's a slim possibility that there is no causation, but the correlation clearly exists.

    No peer reviewed article yet of course, because that takes time and this is new info. As someone who publishes patents and research myself, I know this takes sometimes even years to get published, so just because it's not peer reviewed it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

    Another stupid argument I see repeated is that it happens less than in general population, which is obviously deceitful for anyone that has at least elementary school finished; blood clots are overrepresented within a very specific group; women aged 30-55. Compare this group to general occurence of blood clots in the same group, and scale for observed time and you will see it's over-represented. A single batch caused 3 young, healthy people to die in Italy alone.

    But hey, you can cover your eyes, twist the numbers and statistically and technically be correct.

    Canada has also banned the AZ vaccine now as well for under 55s: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other...55/ar-BB1f7dZL
    Although this probably also didn't happen, even if it is reported again everywhere on this planet, I guess.

    I'm personally hoping for J&J to pull through, and we're not getting AZ 2nd shot, as our experience (early 30s) was frightening and spent in the emergency room.

    Ironically enough, I am on 20 days quarantine since both my wife and son have Covid.
    I wish you good luck and all the best to your family. Please also pay attention for several months after getting through it - multiple internal organ failures have been reported in my country especially typical for kids after COVID. Pay attention for skin abnormalities around feet (bruise like markings). This probably also doesn't exist, but our hospitals urged us to pay attention. No peer reviewed article, though, so it never happened. Kids after covid have similiar multiple internal organ failures as general population, so it's normal :-)

    I am on a waiting list for the J&J vaccine. AZ was not approved here, but given that there are alternatives in this area, I'll go for the alternatives. The odds of developing the issues associated with the AZ are quite small, but it's also not the only game in town.

    The issue here is that we're still hurting for supply at the local distribution. They get 200-300 doses per day to give out and are still sending some people home who make appointments because they never have enough. My parents both got their second shots of one of the other vaccines last weekend, and the shortage is still an issue in this area.

    The J&J is also in short supply and there is a standing waiting list for people who want that one. The waiting list is a sort of "hobo it" kind of thing - if people with priority don't show up or cancel, then a spot opens up and someone from the wait list goes in. If someone offered the AZ as an alternative, I'd pass and wait awhile longer to get another vaccine. I hope your wife is recovering from the ordeal.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by TFarnon View Post
    I would want to know more about the women aged 30-55 who developed clots after this vaccine was administered. At that point in my life, at least from age 45 to 50, I was on medroxyprogesterone (Depo-Provera) to regulate my reproductive system. The risk of this is that progesterone down-regulates the production of Anti-Thrombin III (AT3), which makes these women inherently more likely to have inappropriate clotting (hypercoagulability). That is true of any woman on any progesterone-containing birth control, whether it's injections, things like Nuvaring, or oral contraceptives. I was lucky that I didn't throw clots while on medroxyprogesterone. And, since I was in a laboratory science training program at the time, I got to see that reduction in AT3 in my own blood first-hand. The results were disturbingly spectacular. I joked that if I were to sever an appendage in an accident, that the wound would have stopped spurting and bleeding before they could even get a tourniquet out to apply it.

    So anyways--unless someone already is at risk of hypercoagulability due to genetics, medications or lifestyle choices, the odds of inappropriate coagulation due to a COVID vaccine go down, just as they do overall. I can also tell you, because I see it on a regular basis, that severe COVID is frequently accompanied by hypercoagulability. When I see a sample for platelet mapping (a test that measures platelet function and how those platelets interact with coagulation factors in the blood), if the entry contains certain key terms and comes from certain wards, I automatically expect to see certain features consistent with that hypercoagulability.

    I can also tell you that the heel bruising seen there is consistent with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC). That's also a feature of severe COVID, as well as many other infections, including bacterial sepsis from all kinds of organisms.
    Yes, that is also what I have read. Our doctors speculate it might be in combination with contraception, which younger women are more likely to take, or that it was improperly administered (stretch the skin, the needle must not go through any veins, ...).

    Just to make sure - the picture I shared is side effect common with children after COVID, like you said, NOT the vaccine. I wasn't trying to imply that's after the vaccine.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    The rabies is a beautiful purple color
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Cookedj; March 30th, 2021 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Adhoc, thanks for the MSN source on the Canada decision. Yes, that decision is all over my feeds, too. That article is listed as from "8 hours" ago (today is March 30 where I am), so that is of course very recent. And the word used by the Canadian official in that article is "pause," not "ban" (if we are trying to be accurate with both denotation and connotation).

    But what are your first quotes from? You don't name or list that source. I am interested in reading the entire article to learn more.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    But what are your first quotes from? You don't name or list that source. I am interested in reading the entire article to learn more.
    My search using your quoted material comes up with, basically, a list of articles all based on a single WSJ article with original reporting. This article includes nothing more about this "mechanism," which they claim "must be" the mechanism involved. It's that part of the argument that I am most interested in: the "must be." I have yet to read any other institution or immuno-biologist stating a "must be" position about these few (very rare) cases. Clearly, the vax is somewhat implicated (correlation). No one has denied this.

    Here is the language of the article, up to the paywall, where I can no longer read it:

    >>>"BERLIN—Scientists in Europe said they had identified a mechanism that could lead the AstraZeneca PLC vaccine to cause potentially deadly blood clots in rare instances as well as a possible treatment for it.

    Two teams of medical researchers in Norway and Germany have independently found that the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune reaction causing blood to clot in the brain, which would offer an explanation for isolated incidents across Europe in recent weeks.

    Several European countries briefly halted their rollouts of the vaccine this week after more than 30 recipients were diagnosed with the condition known as cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, or CVST. Most of the people affected were women under the age of 55.

    The issue affected a tiny portion of those who had received the shot, however, and after investigating, the European drugs regulator ruled that the benefits outweighed the potential risks of the vaccine, and recommended vaccinations resume.

    Some countries, such as Germany, France and Italy, resumed..."<<<

    Notice the inclusion of the "coulds" in the language of the reporting. Yes, the professor states this as a "must be" in another article, but this reporting won't go that far into definitive causation. Which, has been my point all along, about professional understandings between causation and correlation.

    Here is an NPR article that gets more to the matter of "certainty" on this:

    >>>>Greinacher and his colleagues analyzed the 13 cases of cerebral blood clots reported in Germany following the administration of roughly 1.6 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in that country. Of the 13 cases, 12 were women, and all the cases occurred between four and 16 days after the shot was administered. The EMA had also noted that almost all the reported clotting incidents were in women under the age of 55.

    Greinacher and his colleagues say that in four of the patients, they were able to isolate and identify the specific antibodies that provoke the immune reaction leading to the cerebral blood clots.

    While Greinacher and his colleagues were studying the cases in Germany, researchers at the Oslo University Hospital were investigating three post-vaccination blood clots in Norway. All the Norwegian cases were health care workers under the age of 50. One of them has since died.

    Professor Pål Andre Holme told the Norwegian newspaper VG that he's confident they've identified antibodies prompted by the vaccine that caused an overreaction by the immune system leading to the blood clots.

    "Our theory that this is a strong immune response that most likely comes after the vaccine," Holme said. It's the same theory that Greinacher and his colleagues have put forward in Germany.

    "There is no other thing than the vaccine that can explain this immune response," he said.

    Pushed by the local newspaper as to why he's so confident, Holme added that there's "no other history in these patients that can give such a strong immune response. I'm pretty sure it's these antibodies that's the cause, and I see no other reason than that it's the vaccine that triggers it."

    Not everyone, including the European Medicines Agency, is convinced that the cause of these clots has been found.

    On Friday, the EMA said that there is "no increase in overall risk of blood clots" among people who've gotten the AstraZeneca vaccine. The European regulator said it had reports of 25 clots so far among the roughly 20 million people who've received the AstraZeneca shot. The EMA, however, didn't rule out a possible connection entirely. "A causal link with the vaccine is not proven," the EMA said in a statement, "but is possible and deserves further analysis."<<<<


    from: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...lood-clot-link

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    For those interested, this, apparently, is the original report in German (which I cannot read): https://gth-online.org/wp-content/up...19032021-3.pdf

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    I don't listen to religious fanatics, so I'm not reading this insane wall of text.

    Germany has now also blocked AZ for under 60s due to the amount of unexplained brain blood clots in young women after vaccination. Religious zealotry says it's a coincidence, the scientists around the world say it's not. Hmmm decisions, decisions, who to trust?

    https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/...r-16063052.php

    (And every other media, just Google it, it's literally everywhere)

    In summary, AZ vaccine is almost completely inefficient for over 65s and kills under 55-60s (I'm sorry, it's just a coincidence, 30 something women have brain hemorrhage after the shot incidentally all the time, just a coincidence, nothing else). Who is this thing for anyway?
    I'm waiting for other vaccines to become available for myself and my family.
    Last edited by adhoc; March 30th, 2021 at 04:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Vaccine question

    Adhoc, your persisting level of sneer is unusual. Not sure what is up with that.

    And you are of course free to take or not take any vaccine of your choice. We wish you and your family good health!

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