Vaccine question

[Farmboy]

I wonder if any of the authors of these reports and papers used a pencil to write the first draft.

[adhoc]

Women aged 34-55 are 9x more likely to die from CVST 2 weeks after being vaccinated with AZ, than otherwise.

That's not accurate. No one has determined "who is more likely to die."

There appears to be increased risk, yes.

You are right, sorry, my mistake. The numbers represent increased risk for cvst, not death.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56594189

You will no doubt pick the bits you like. I see several don't knows (don't think you'll like those) and some figures that seem to adequately indicate where the more serious illness still is.

But I've wasted enough time on this now and you won't be a sport and tell my how to improve my character, so I am done.

I see no reason why this would be the definitive source, when I have clearly linked here actual scientific studies (pre peer review) that contradict this journalists opinion.

As for the character - I'm sorry, and I really don't mean this in a bad way, but I really don't understand what you mean or what I am supposed to say. I like numbers, that's all really. I don't even know what makes you think you lack "character" (I don't even know what this means).

[adhoc]

Are you implying medication that's now banned in half of Europe and Canada has no clinically significant side effects?

Also, I don't think one should be really familiar with the two if one likes numbers. It has nothing to do with numbers, just a different conclusion, based on arbitrarily set human made conditions. The numbers stay the same.

Anyway, I just wanted to show that there indeed is a connection and I think I established that. I'm tired of this thread and it has gone on longer from my side than it should have anyway.

[TSherbs]

Also, I don't think one should be really familiar with the two if one likes numbers. It has nothing to do with numbers, just a different conclusion, based on arbitrarily set human made conditions.

Conclusions (the thinking and decision-making parts) matter a lot. And some clinical conclusions are more valid and accurate than others.
.

[TFarnon]

Could actually have been hydroxychloroquine. We were given hydroxychloroquine tablets in the Gulf in 1991. They weren't huge or yellow. But I did take them. They told us to take them with meals, and I learned why when I didn't feel like eating one evening. Instant colonoscopy prep. I do mean instant. One explosion and done. But the reason I stayed on them was that for the first time in my life, I didn't have acne. My complexion was gorgeous on the stuff. Too bad that there are all kinds of other icky side effects like bone marrow suppression with long-term use.

[Igraine]

I have been very skeptical of this vaccine from day one. It’s not mandatory for medical workers, but I’m sure it will be eventually, and I’m still not sure what I will do. I’ve been exposed to covid from the beginning. The first people to get it at my work were people I took care of, and I was around 6 of them, without even wearing a mask, in the same time period they tested positive. Several of my coworkers, who worked the same station as myself, used the same computers, phones, etc, tested positive. There was a whole week in March where I had a runny nose and headache, but I never got really sick, and they hadn’t started testing us yet, so not sure if that was my covid experience or not. Probably it was, as I never get headaches....but I think I would rather rely on my own immune system than this vaccine. It seems to have served me well so far.

Interesting to think, it’s been 25 or 30 years they have been working on an HIV vaccine with no luck. Same with hepatitis. The flu shot, after decades of research, is still maybe only 50% effective in any given year....but I’m supposed to believe that they came up with a vaccine for covid 19 in just a few months?

[TSherbs]

I have been very skeptical of this vaccine from day one. It’s not mandatory for medical workers, but I’m sure it will be eventually, and I’m still not sure what I will do. I’ve been exposed to covid from the beginning. The first people to get it at my work were people I took care of, and I was around 6 of them, without even wearing a mask, in the same time period they tested positive. Several of my coworkers, who worked the same station as myself, used the same computers, phones, etc, tested positive. There was a whole week in March where I had a runny nose and headache, but I never got really sick, and they hadn’t started testing us yet, so not sure if that was my covid experience or not. Probably it was, as I never get headaches....but I think I would rather rely on my own immune system than this vaccine. It seems to have served me well so far.

Interesting to think, it’s been 25 or 30 years they have been working on an HIV vaccine with no luck. Same with hepatitis. The flu shot, after decades of research, is still maybe only 50% effective in any given year....but I’m supposed to believe that they came up with a vaccine for covid 19 in just a few months?

Skeptical of what aspect? That it has efficacy? Have you ever been immunized for anything? And are you aware of how these vaccines have been developed versus the old process of using eggs for the flu vaccine in the past? Are you aware of the former guessing game of trying to figure out, months in advance, which common flu strains would likely be the ones to rise and spread around the world? This is all different now with the targeting and development of the COVID-19 vaccines.

[TFarnon]

As a professional lab rat, I just want to shriek. Some of my coworkers "just" got horribly ill. A phlebotomist at another hospital, someone who I knew by name even if I wasn't close to him, died. Some of the employees at my hospital spent weeks in the ICU. And that's not counting the patients. Some of the patients died. Some of them died after a long and horrific stay in the hospital. It wasn't the hospital that made their stay horrific. It was the disease itself. That said, I haven't tested positive for the disease myself, in spite of a respiratory/gastrointestinal virus with nearly identical symptoms (probably an enterovirus). I tested negative by swab/PCR both times. I tested negative on the antibody (blood) test. However, I have a robust immune system, and have been exposed to more respiratory viruses than the average person.

Okay, I also think your skepticism about influenza vaccine is unfounded. I don't come down with influenza if I get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation. That said, my most recent tangle with influenza was in one of the years when the vaccine wasn't a good match. Still, considering some of the charts I skimmed in order to anticipate transfusion needs, I think that the combination of tamiflu and a less-effective vaccine probably saved my life. What little I read still makes me shudder when I think about it. In another year (2009-2009), my own clinical microbiology instructor told me that I didn't need the extra H1N1 vaccine, because we were of an age and had already been exposed to similar H1N1 strains. I got the shot anyways. She didn't. She ended up hospitalized from that H1N1 strain. We shared enough exposures for me to have been infected had I not gotten the vaccine. 50% or not, I'll take 50% if it will keep me out of the hospital and alive.

I rely on a well-primed and trained immune system, with every vaccination that has been reasonable to obtained. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, the methodology and the components of that vaccine have been known and in use for other (research) purposes for over 20 years now. I used to make mRNA for electrophysiology studies, and I used to use a lipid delivery system to get it into cells for those experiments. The only thing that is really new is the use of these things as vaccines injected into human beings.

You are wrong about hepatitis: there are vaccines for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis A. There isn't a vaccine for Hepatitis C yet. I know. I'm picky. I'm paid to be picky, and it just happens to fit with who I am.

But in the end, I'll take my chances with a vaccine, thank you very much. It doesn't mean I can run around licking walls or humans. It doesn't mean I shouldn't wash my hands frequently and appropriately. But I'll still get the vaccine(s).

[TFarnon]

I did some reading on the particular kind of stroke seen a small number of patients who were given the Astra Zeneca vaccine. I found this page from Johns Hopkins: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...nus-thrombosis And there I found several things that align with my speculation on the phenomenon. I'd speculated, based on the disproportionate number of women in a specific age group who have been sickened or died from CVST after vaccination, that this was due to one or more factors involved in hypercoagulability: genetic disorders, gonadal hormone down-regulation of AT3 production (e.g. birth control pills, pregnancy), iron deficiency anemia (which can lead to reactive thrombocytosis), lupus, antiphospholipid syndrome, obesity and the accompanying risks of inflammation and hyperfibrinogenemia...there are many causes of hypercoagulability, and it would seem that they are all risk factors for CVST. What's more, women of childbearing age are disproportionately affected by them. I won't go so far as to say absolutely that the Astra-Zeneca vaccine isn't to blame. It would appear that anyone who has another disorder that either results in hypercoagulability or a risk of hypercoagulability should, if at all possible, get a different vaccine.

And should the Astra-Zeneca be the only vaccine available, then the risks of the vaccine are still apparently less than the risk of severe COVID.

[TSherbs]

TFarnon, I appreciate your posts: measured, detailed, informed. Thank you.

[Brilliant Bill]

Thanks for shrieking for me.

So fascinating for me to compare my own experience from long ago. Today, people seem to think protecting themselves and others from a deadly disease is a personal decision they can forego if they decide to, based on whatever. They may have good information, bad information or no information. Some respond childishly with a simple, "you can't make me." I recall standing in line to get the polio vaccine in the 1950s. We saw it literally as a miracle -- the scourge of polio was over!! There was NO ONE who resisted this; you would have been viewed as mad to claim it would be better not to get vaccinated. There became a litany of vaccinations a child needed to enroll in schools, public or private. No one saw this as anything but socially responsible behavior. Somehow we have come to a place in this world where opinions, even totally unfounded ones are seen as the equivalent of scientific fact.

Just FYI, there are two sources I've found valuable through this pandemic. You may or may not find them helpful, but I see them as credible and reliable; hence they've been useful to me.

First is an English medical educator, Dr. John Campbell. He is a nurse and spent a lot of years training nurses. He can get a bit pedantic in his daily vids, but that's not necessarily a bad thing:



The other is a medical doctor who is a pulmonary specialist and has worked a lot of patients with Covid19. He seems very careful not to ever say anything unfounded, and I've never seen him say anything I could find disagreement with. His shortcoming, if you want to call it that, is that he can get too technical for general viewing. I struggle a bit with is explanations, but he obviously knows his stuff:

As a professional lab rat, I just want to shriek. Some of my coworkers "just" got horribly ill. A phlebotomist at another hospital, someone who I knew by name even if I wasn't close to him, died. Some of the employees at my hospital spent weeks in the ICU. And that's not counting the patients. Some of the patients died. Some of them died after a long and horrific stay in the hospital. It wasn't the hospital that made their stay horrific. It was the disease itself. That said, I haven't tested positive for the disease myself, in spite of a respiratory/gastrointestinal virus with nearly identical symptoms (probably an enterovirus). I tested negative by swab/PCR both times. I tested negative on the antibody (blood) test. However, I have a robust immune system, and have been exposed to more respiratory viruses than the average person.

Okay, I also think your skepticism about influenza vaccine is unfounded. I don't come down with influenza if I get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation. That said, my most recent tangle with influenza was in one of the years when the vaccine wasn't a good match. Still, considering some of the charts I skimmed in order to anticipate transfusion needs, I think that the combination of tamiflu and a less-effective vaccine probably saved my life. What little I read still makes me shudder when I think about it. In another year (2009-2009), my own clinical microbiology instructor told me that I didn't need the extra H1N1 vaccine, because we were of an age and had already been exposed to similar H1N1 strains. I got the shot anyways. She didn't. She ended up hospitalized from that H1N1 strain. We shared enough exposures for me to have been infected had I not gotten the vaccine. 50% or not, I'll take 50% if it will keep me out of the hospital and alive.

I rely on a well-primed and trained immune system, with every vaccination that has been reasonable to obtained. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, the methodology and the components of that vaccine have been known and in use for other (research) purposes for over 20 years now. I used to make mRNA for electrophysiology studies, and I used to use a lipid delivery system to get it into cells for those experiments. The only thing that is really new is the use of these things as vaccines injected into human beings.

You are wrong about hepatitis: there are vaccines for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis A. There isn't a vaccine for Hepatitis C yet. I know. I'm picky. I'm paid to be picky, and it just happens to fit with who I am.

But in the end, I'll take my chances with a vaccine, thank you very much. It doesn't mean I can run around licking walls or humans. It doesn't mean I shouldn't wash my hands frequently and appropriately. But I'll still get the vaccine(s).

[Cookedj]

Funny, when young it was different. In Vietnam they gave us these huge yellow pills -- against malaria, they said. I'm guessing it was hydroxychloroquine. I don't know anyone who actually took them -- we threw them away, it was like a bad joke!

This is interesting. I have heard whispers etc that the military members that took the malaria pills will have a lower rate of COVID, or even minimal effects. As I'm sitting here with my very minimal side effects, I wonder if there's any truth to it? Pure speculation, no actual studies or science. Just a bunch of old vets talking crap.

[dneal]

As a professional lab rat, I just want to shriek. Some of my coworkers "just" got horribly ill. A phlebotomist at another hospital, someone who I knew by name even if I wasn't close to him, died. Some of the employees at my hospital spent weeks in the ICU. And that's not counting the patients. Some of the patients died. Some of them died after a long and horrific stay in the hospital. It wasn't the hospital that made their stay horrific. It was the disease itself. That said, I haven't tested positive for the disease myself, in spite of a respiratory/gastrointestinal virus with nearly identical symptoms (probably an enterovirus). I tested negative by swab/PCR both times. I tested negative on the antibody (blood) test. However, I have a robust immune system, and have been exposed to more respiratory viruses than the average person.

Okay, I also think your skepticism about influenza vaccine is unfounded. I don't come down with influenza if I get the vaccine and the vaccine is a good match for the strains in circulation. That said, my most recent tangle with influenza was in one of the years when the vaccine wasn't a good match. Still, considering some of the charts I skimmed in order to anticipate transfusion needs, I think that the combination of tamiflu and a less-effective vaccine probably saved my life. What little I read still makes me shudder when I think about it. In another year (2009-2009), my own clinical microbiology instructor told me that I didn't need the extra H1N1 vaccine, because we were of an age and had already been exposed to similar H1N1 strains. I got the shot anyways. She didn't. She ended up hospitalized from that H1N1 strain. We shared enough exposures for me to have been infected had I not gotten the vaccine. 50% or not, I'll take 50% if it will keep me out of the hospital and alive.

I rely on a well-primed and trained immune system, with every vaccination that has been reasonable to obtained. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, the methodology and the components of that vaccine have been known and in use for other (research) purposes for over 20 years now. I used to make mRNA for electrophysiology studies, and I used to use a lipid delivery system to get it into cells for those experiments. The only thing that is really new is the use of these things as vaccines injected into human beings.

You are wrong about hepatitis: there are vaccines for Hepatitis B and Hepatitis A. There isn't a vaccine for Hepatitis C yet. I know. I'm picky. I'm paid to be picky, and it just happens to fit with who I am.

But in the end, I'll take my chances with a vaccine, thank you very much. It doesn't mean I can run around licking walls or humans. It doesn't mean I shouldn't wash my hands frequently and appropriately. But I'll still get the vaccine(s).

I would think a "professional lab rat" wouldn't be relying on anecdotal evidence.

My 77 year old mother survived with a week of "feeling puny". Her 78 year old husband laid in bed and watched TV for 3 days, and went golfing on day 4. My 75 year old uncle - overweight, high blood pressure, borderline diabetic, and has had two minor strokes - felt bad for about a week.

Should I generalize from their experiences?

[TSherbs]

Bill, that second video--although a bit outdated (prior to J&J approval)--is particularly useful. I appreciate how he summarized the mechanism of that vax and the test results (including the interesting placebo info). I get my second Moderna vax later this week, but I sure would get the J&J if that had been offered to me.

[Chuck Naill]

Bill, that second video--although a bit outdated (prior to J&J approval)--is particularly useful. I appreciate how he summarized the mechanism of that vax and the test results (including the interesting placebo info). I get my second Moderna vax later this week, but I sure would get the J&J if that had been offered to me.

I am glad I had the opportunity to obtain the Moderna vaccine two shot type. Perhaps I am just hardwired to think of the MMR and other two shot type as better.

[adhoc]

EMA has now confirmed there is a link between AZ vaccine and blood clots in the brain. They still advise the vaccine, because of the rarity of occurrence.

https://www.politico.eu/article/astr...-ema-official/

One week ago no-one believed me, as of now it is a fact. Conclusions are not up to me (as some implied), everyone can make up their own mind if they still want this vaccine or not, I just wanted to point out the numbers did not add up, regardless of how many people screeched it's "the same as in general population" at me (or wanted me banned simply for stating facts).

[TFarnon]

I wouldn't say that I *didn't* believe you. But at the time, the analysis wasn't complete. And, as I posted, my preliminary thoughts on avoiding the AZ vaccine in favor of other vaccines still hold. The last I saw, there were tentative recommendations to use a vaccine other than the AZ vaccine in those individuals at particularly high risk of hypercoagulability, including women on hormonal contraceptives, women who are or were recently pregnant, people with certain hypercoagulability disorders like antiphospholipid syndrome, Factor V Leyden, AT3 deficiency and others, and people in certain stages of cirrhosis, especially alcoholic cirrhosis. People with ET (Essential Thrombocytosis) and iron deficiency anemia (especially if reactive thrombocytosis is already present) should also have a vaccine other than AZ. Those are just the conditions I can think of without resorting to notes, textbooks or internet sources. Oh--and I forgot people with chronic inflammatory conditions, such as ulcerative colitis, rheumatoid arthritis and even obesity should also try to obtain a non-AZ vaccine. Any risk factor for hypercoagulability or increased potential for platelet activation or aggregation should be considered at increased risk of the kind of stroke (CerebroVascular Sinus Thrombosis -- CVST) seen in the EU with AZ vaccine.

Bear in mind, though, that this is, just guessing, no more than about 20 percent of the general population, or whatever the percentage of women on hormonal contraceptives or pregnant might be. Most of the patients who show the characteristic thromboelastrography traces of hypercoagulability in my area are patients with alcoholic cirrhosis. And I live in what is considered the "Alcoholic Cirrhosis Capital of the United States"--the Reno-Sparks, Nevada area. If I were a public health official trying to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible, I probably would target my distribution of the various vaccines so that the AZ vaccine went predominantly to senior citizens and (once available) to children who have not yet entered High School. If the AZ vaccine were still in surplus status, I would try to avoid giving it to women of childbearing age and men between 40 and 65. By focusing on prevalence rates of hypercoagulability in the population as seen in various demographics, it would be possible to substantially reduce the risk of CVST.

For the rest of the population, the risk of CVST is far, far smaller than the risk of contracting (about 10%, perhaps more) COVID-19. COVID-19 also has a disturbingly high mortality rate for a pathogen circulating in the developed world. For higher-risk populations, it's worth evaluating that risk prior to vaccination. A patient with Factor V Leyden absolutely should receive a different vaccine. Those patients, while very small in number, have enough trouble with hypercoagulability to begin with.

So anyways--the AZ vaccine isn't a death sentence. Far from it. Given the numbers seen in the EU, it isn't even an automatic death (or severe illness) sentence for those at higher risk.

One last thing--another couple sources of hypercoagulability: Polycythemia Vera (PV) and hereditary hemochromatosis (HH). PV tends to make blood plasma really viscous. I may not know why, but untreated PV patients have plasma that resembles glycerol or honey. And HH patients can also have the same plasma issues, as well as chronic inflammatory issues.

Hang around me long enough and you will want to run screaming from the room. I can go on like this for days.

[TSherbs]

One week ago no-one believed me...

You are having trouble summarizing the replies to your comments. This is not accurate.

[TSherbs]

.... (or wanted me banned simply for stating facts).

What is this comment from?

[adhoc]

I didn't necessarily have you in mind.

Anyone seen my banhammer??? I used it on myself not too long ago...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This, I assumed, was meant for me.