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    Default Next fountain pen

    I'm looking forward to the third U.S. stimulus check and want to use part of it to buy my next fountain pen. Please see my signature for the pens that I have.


    I'm thinking of the following (all under $400.):


    new Pelikan 400;
    vintage Pelikan 400NN from Rick Propas;
    vintage Pelikan 400N from Rick Propas;
    vintage Pelikan 400 from Rick Propas;


    new Waterman Carene; or


    new Santini.


    Any suggestions? Thoughts?


    I like all the pens that I have, but my favorites are the Pelikan M850 and the Waterman Phileas.


    Note: I am cross-posting this inquiry to FPN
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Senior Member guyy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Those 1950s Pelikans are nice, but why Rick Propas? Is there something special about them?

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    From my limited experience of Pelikan - the 400 is lighter and smaller than the 850.

    So, if you go for the 400, you are getting a different experience - will a lighter pen suit your hand?

    The Carene is the flagship Waterman and is a heavier pen. The inlaid nib means you have to take a higher grip than with most pens - posting helps alter the balance. It is a nice writer, but might take some getting used to. The nib is hard - so you are not going to get a lot of line variation with it.

    If you want a Pelikan nib in a heavier pen, then the Cross Townsend might be an option. It's the weight of the Carene, but with an 18K Pelikan nib. I like mine. It is not the most exciting writer, but it is super reliable and has so far taken every ink I've thrown at it.

    Santini, from what I've read, has some flex - so you are going to get the opposite of the Carene and the Townsend. I think Santini is also resin, so again if you don't like super light pens it might not be for you.

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    Those 1950s Pelikans are nice, but why Rick Propas? Is there something special about them?
    You have a guarantee that they'll work, and work well. Although my luck with eBay Pelikan 400s has been excellent...the artificial piston gasket they were originally made with usually is still working fine.
    Will
    If my p.m box is full, feel free to email me at dabantur@gmail.com.

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    Those 1950s Pelikans are nice, but why Rick Propas? Is there something special about them?
    If I buy a vintage pen, I'm at the mercy of the seller. Most vintage pens have been restored or worked on. You have to start somewhere and I've had some pleasant contact with him. He also seems to have a wide selection of pens. That's why. Please PM me if you've had negative experience with him.

    As to Santini, yes, girth and weight are important to me. I'd have to get the pen without holding it and trying it out first. These are things to think about.

    Oh, I think I like my pen on the wet side. I find the Waterman Expert a little on the dry side.
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    Those 1950s Pelikans are nice, but why Rick Propas? Is there something special about them?
    You have a guarantee that they'll work, and work well. Although my luck with eBay Pelikan 400s has been excellent...the artificial piston gasket they were originally made with usually is still working fine.
    FountainPenKid: What guarantee that what will work?

    What's this about an "artificial piston gasket?"
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliuzhkin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    Those 1950s Pelikans are nice, but why Rick Propas? Is there something special about them?
    You have a guarantee that they'll work, and work well. Although my luck with eBay Pelikan 400s has been excellent...the artificial piston gasket they were originally made with usually is still working fine.
    FountainPenKid: What guarantee that what will work?

    What's this about an "artificial piston gasket?"
    I guess I used the term "guarantee" a bit loosely but see here, he seems to effectively do this: https://www.thepenguinpen.com/learn/article/8

    The Pelikan 400 was released, iirc, with a synthetic seal. What sort of synthetic materia exactlyl, I'm not sure...
    Will
    If my p.m box is full, feel free to email me at dabantur@gmail.com.

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    I quite like Peyton Street Pens for vintage pens. Great details and photos and writing samples as well as fair prices.

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    Thumbs up Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    From my limited experience of Pelikan - the 400 is lighter and smaller than the 850.

    So, if you go for the 400, you are getting a different experience - will a lighter pen suit your hand?

    The Carene is the flagship Waterman and is a heavier pen. The inlaid nib means you have to take a higher grip than with most pens - posting helps alter the balance. It is a nice writer, but might take some getting used to. The nib is hard - so you are not going to get a lot of line variation with it.

    If you want a Pelikan nib in a heavier pen, then the Cross Townsend might be an option. It's the weight of the Carene, but with an 18K Pelikan nib. I like mine. It is not the most exciting writer, but it is super reliable and has so far taken every ink I've thrown at it.

    Santini, from what I've read, has some flex - so you are going to get the opposite of the Carene and the Townsend. I think Santini is also resin, so again if you don't like super light pens it might not be for you.
    CORRECTION: My Pelikan is a Souveran M 805, not an 850.

    It's specs are 14.2 cm length, 13.1 mm width, 28.2g weight and 1.35 ml fill capacity.

    The 400 is 12.7cm, 11.7 mm, 14.9g and 1.3 ml. It half the weight of the 805, so that's a disadvantage.

    The Santinis are 31 g, 145 mm and 17 mm. That's close to the Pelikan M 805 even though its acrylic resin. That looks good.
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Because we don't have anything like it in the UK, I don't entirely understand the stimulus check thing, but given that I imagine it's designed to stimulate your domestic economy, why not buy a US-made pen. Better still, buy a pen from people who actually make them themselves.

    I'd be looking at Franklin Christoph, Edison, Carolina Pen Company, Newton, and so many more. None of them mass produced in overseas factories and great quality control.

    Or take a look at some of the great US made vintage pens, and support a 'local' restorer and trader, rather than just another importer/reseller.

    But I may have the whole concept all wrong!!

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    ... or not...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Thumbs up Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by mizgeorge View Post
    Because we don't have anything like it in the UK, I don't entirely understand the stimulus check thing, but given that I imagine it's designed to stimulate your domestic economy, why not buy a US-made pen. Better still, buy a pen from people who actually make them themselves.

    I'd be looking at Franklin Christoph, Edison, Carolina Pen Company, Newton, and so many more. None of them mass produced in overseas factories and great quality control.

    Or take a look at some of the great US made vintage pens, and support a 'local' restorer and trader, rather than just another importer/reseller.

    But I may have the whole concept all wrong!!
    Very good suggestions. Thank for your original thoughts.
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliuzhkin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mizgeorge View Post
    Because we don't have anything like it in the UK, I don't entirely understand the stimulus check thing, but given that I imagine it's designed to stimulate your domestic economy, why not buy a US-made pen. Better still, buy a pen from people who actually make them themselves.

    I'd be looking at Franklin Christoph, Edison, Carolina Pen Company, Newton, and so many more. None of them mass produced in overseas factories and great quality control.

    Or take a look at some of the great US made vintage pens, and support a 'local' restorer and trader, rather than just another importer/reseller.

    But I may have the whole concept all wrong!!
    Very good suggestions. Thank for your original thoughts.
    Mizgeorge: As I study information about the pens in which I might be interested, I think about your post. I'm a lawyer and know that your post brings up the topic of Statutory Interpretation. There are many guidelines for concluding what a statute means and one of them is consideration of the statute's title. I don't know the statute's exact title, but money I expect to receive is called an "Economic Impact Payment" and in the vernacular, a "Stimulus Check." Further investigation would require looking at the words used in the statute. This statute is over 600 pages long and I don't intend to actually look at it. When Congress passes a law, it attaches a short memo describing the law's purpose. The President, on signing the law, attaches a similar memo. Those memos, while not binding, might help us understand the law.

    Then there's Ethics. According to Utilitarianism, the most ethical choice is that which provides the greatest good to the greatest number of people. For example, buying a pen is better than just holding onto the money. I'm not sure whether buying a U.S. pen from a U.S. seller is more ethical than buying a foreign pen from a foreign seller.

    Also, I remember, from Economics 201 and 202, taken 50 years ago, that money the federal government spends stimulates the economy. The money should go to a U.S. recipient who pays another U.S. recipient, etc. I don't know how this would work out in a global economy.

    I'll consider these issues in deciding which pen to buy and from whom.

    Thanks for raising these issues.
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliuzhkin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kaliuzhkin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mizgeorge View Post
    Because we don't have anything like it in the UK, I don't entirely understand the stimulus check thing, but given that I imagine it's designed to stimulate your domestic economy, why not buy a US-made pen. Better still, buy a pen from people who actually make them themselves.

    I'd be looking at Franklin Christoph, Edison, Carolina Pen Company, Newton, and so many more. None of them mass produced in overseas factories and great quality control.

    Or take a look at some of the great US made vintage pens, and support a 'local' restorer and trader, rather than just another importer/reseller.

    But I may have the whole concept all wrong!!
    Very good suggestions. Thank for your original thoughts.
    Mizgeorge: As I study information about the pens in which I might be interested, I think about your post. I'm a lawyer and know that your post brings up the topic of Statutory Interpretation. There are many guidelines for concluding what a statute means and one of them is consideration of the statute's title. I don't know the statute's exact title, but money I expect to receive is called an "Economic Impact Payment" and in the vernacular, a "Stimulus Check." Further investigation would require looking at the words used in the statute. This statute is over 600 pages long and I don't intend to actually look at it. When Congress passes a law, it attaches a short memo describing the law's purpose. The President, on signing the law, attaches a similar memo. Those memos, while not binding, might help us understand the law.

    Then there's Ethics. According to Utilitarianism, the most ethical choice is that which provides the greatest good to the greatest number of people. For example, buying a pen is better than just holding onto the money. I'm not sure whether buying a U.S. pen from a U.S. seller is more ethical than buying a foreign pen from a foreign seller.

    Also, I remember, from Economics 201 and 202, taken 50 years ago, that money the federal government spends stimulates the economy. The money should go to a U.S. recipient who pays another U.S. recipient, etc. I don't know how this would work out in a global economy.

    I'll consider these issues in deciding which pen to buy and from whom.

    Thanks for raising these issues.
    Thanks Dan - I brought it up partly because I lack any real understanding of the system that your Government has put in place and partly because I know that what few measures have been taken here in the UK during the pandemic have been designed to try to protect the domestic economy, which has been dealt a near death blow by the combination of Covid and Brexit.

    It's been a long time since I studied economics as well (though ethics are a bit more recent as I have a daughter studying the subject right now so there are endless household debates on almost every part of the subject), and the world has changed an enormous amount since I did.

    I do know that I try hard to support smaller businesses, where my purchase has an immediate and direct impact, and for whom every sale can mean the difference between staying afloat or folding, and I try especially hard to support local enterprise where I reasonably can. If I'm buying overseas, again, I'll generally opt for a smaller producer if it's feasible to do so. That doesn't mean that I love my Edisons and FCs more than I love my Pelikans, but most of those are vintage, and have supported small traders along the way.

    I certainly wasn't trying to sound preachy, and I'm sure the big multinationals are suffering as well, but perhaps not in quite the same way, and I'm very conscious that many of them have behaved in a way in the past that makes me feel they are less deserving of my little bit of help than they should be.

    Of course what it really boils down to is that I wish my government wanted to give me some money! They certainly seem happy enough to take it.

    I'm sure you'll choose something you enjoy whichever way you go - and I'm grateful for someone finally helping me to understand what the system's about.

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Rick Propas has picked out a Pelikan M800 for $425. He gave me two pictures. Is there anything I should pay attention to? Any questions to ask Rick?

    He says that the nib is not "a custom nib" and "I do promise you the medium nib will be a great writer." It is 18 carat.

    The barrel and section are black. It was manufactured 1993 - 1997.

    He says that it "shows a bit of plating wear at the metal ring around the section at the nib end." Is that a cause for concern? Will I need to do anything about it?
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    The plating on that section trim ring inevitably corrodes, even when the pen is not in use. The older the pen, the more likely itís going to show corrosion there.

    Plated section trim rings are just a bad idea. Theyíre replaceable on some pens like the MB 144. As far as i know, the one on the M800 isnít replaceable. If it bugs you, my suggestion would be to skip the M800 and go with a pre-1965 Pelikan, an MB 146 or some other pen without a section trim ring.
    Last edited by guyy; April 2nd, 2021 at 06:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Great pen! And the nibs of that era are wonderful - the later ones are much harder and much less desirable.

    I wouldn't be too worried about the plating loss, that's pretty ubiquitous for the era. It needs to be wiped after filling to stop it from getting worse - but that's just good pen hygiene.

    I do think the price is a little steep for a pen that isn't either mint or has some scarcity value (either colour/edition or the earlier W Germany version), but they do seem to be more expensive in the US than we're used to over here.

    Is it boxed with paperwork? That can add to the perceived value

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    So I decided. I ordered a Santini Libra Cumberland Gold (Ebonite) with 18kt Gold (F Flexy) nib.

    I'll let you know when I get it.

    Dan
    Dan Kalish

    Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Santini Libra Cumberland Gold ebonite, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris and Sheaffer Prelude

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Wow! That's quite a pen

    I hope you enjoy it - they look beautiful, especially the ebonite versions.

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    Default Re: Next fountain pen

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliuzhkin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kaliuzhkin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mizgeorge View Post
    Because we don't have anything like it in the UK, I don't entirely understand the stimulus check thing, but given that I imagine it's designed to stimulate your domestic economy, why not buy a US-made pen. Better still, buy a pen from people who actually make them themselves.

    I'd be looking at Franklin Christoph, Edison, Carolina Pen Company, Newton, and so many more. None of them mass produced in overseas factories and great quality control.

    Or take a look at some of the great US made vintage pens, and support a 'local' restorer and trader, rather than just another importer/reseller.

    But I may have the whole concept all wrong!!
    Very good suggestions. Thank for your original thoughts.
    Mizgeorge: As I study information about the pens in which I might be interested, I think about your post. I'm a lawyer and know that your post brings up the topic of Statutory Interpretation. There are many guidelines for concluding what a statute means and one of them is consideration of the statute's title. I don't know the statute's exact title, but money I expect to receive is called an "Economic Impact Payment" and in the vernacular, a "Stimulus Check." Further investigation would require looking at the words used in the statute. This statute is over 600 pages long and I don't intend to actually look at it. When Congress passes a law, it attaches a short memo describing the law's purpose. The President, on signing the law, attaches a similar memo. Those memos, while not binding, might help us understand the law.

    Then there's Ethics. According to Utilitarianism, the most ethical choice is that which provides the greatest good to the greatest number of people. For example, buying a pen is better than just holding onto the money. I'm not sure whether buying a U.S. pen from a U.S. seller is more ethical than buying a foreign pen from a foreign seller.

    Also, I remember, from Economics 201 and 202, taken 50 years ago, that money the federal government spends stimulates the economy. The money should go to a U.S. recipient who pays another U.S. recipient, etc. I don't know how this would work out in a global economy.

    I'll consider these issues in deciding which pen to buy and from whom.

    Thanks for raising these issues.
    More ethical to spend stimulus money....

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