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Thread: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

  1. #41
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Poor anaolgy.
    Note to self: Chuck doesn't know what an analogy is.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Poor anaolgy.
    Note to self: Chuck doesn't know what an analogy is.

  3. #43
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    #36: vague and weak post.

    Chuck, you insist journalists aren't, or a least shouldn't be called out as, biased.

    "I have to tell you, you know, itís part of reporting this case, this election, the feeling most people get when they hear Barack Obamaís speech. My, I felt this thrill going up my leg. " (Emphasis added)

    Your comment please.
    Yes, Chris Matthews. Former aide to Tip O'Neill, and many others. Failed political candidate.

    Then there's George Stephanopoulos, who just interviewed the President of the United States on ABC News, about Afghanistan.

    George Stephanopoulos has a Masters in Theology and worked on the Dukakis and Clinton campaigns. He served in the Clinton Whitehouse.

    But it's unreasonable to be skeptical and consider that there might just be some bias present from these now "journalists".
    Be your own tenth man.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    #36: vague and weak post.

    Chuck, you insist journalists aren't, or a least shouldn't be called out as, biased.

    "I have to tell you, you know, itís part of reporting this case, this election, the feeling most people get when they hear Barack Obamaís speech. My, I felt this thrill going up my leg. " (Emphasis added)

    Your comment please.
    Perhaps the best comment is to explain what I do. I read people I know who have a different perspective than I do. For example, I might read about the Black Lives Matter movement to try to understand what the group thinks. It is not that I disagree or think they are wrong. Let's say you hear someone disparaging the movement either on the air or in your group of friend. Since you've taken the time to find out what they think, you will be better able to determine if what you are hearing from your sources is true or not.

    Secondly, if I am reading an opinion article I already know by the headline what's coming, but I read it anyway. For me, I am more informed. If I only read information that leads to what I have decided is true, then I am not really informed, but having my bias confirmed. It seems to me this is where most people are in their search for information and it is dangerous.

    During the Vietnam era parents listened and believed the government. Their children were the ones protesting. The parents wanted their children to stop protesting and trust the government they trusted in WW2. Eventually it was found out the failures of the government. Today the same thing is occuring. The people who don't go along to get along are in a position to be more informed and I think objective.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    "Why Bidenís Lack of Strategic Patience Led to Disaster"

    This is an opinion piece from the New York Times this morning. If you call yourself a believer the Times is biased, why would they print an op-ed with such a title? This one reason I take issue with making blanket statements about journalists and agencies. Your opinions don't support the truth, but it probably makes you feel good, or more likely smug.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Poor anaolgy.
    Note to self: Chuck doesn't know what an analogy is.
    Maybe not, but I voted and I am vaccinated. I did it for my family in both cases.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    "Why Bidenís Lack of Strategic Patience Led to Disaster"

    This is an opinion piece from the New York Times this morning. If you call yourself a believer the Times is biased, why would they print an op-ed with such a title? This one reason I take issue with making blanket statements about journalists and agencies. Your opinions don't support the truth, but it probably makes you feel good, or more likely smug.
    The New York Times is one of the best newspapers on the planet. Is it perfect, no. Has it had professional lapses, yes. Does its news and features tend to slant progressive in tone, yes. Is the quality of its writing and reporting among the best in the world...yes. Is it oracular truth from God...no.

    edited to add: I read my local paper 100 times more often than I read the NYT. But I can clearly tell which one is a better work of journalism.
    Last edited by TSherbs; August 22nd, 2021 at 07:57 AM.

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  9. #48
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Thank you. Itís supports Bidenís decision.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    "Why Bidenís Lack of Strategic Patience Led to Disaster"

    This is an opinion piece from the New York Times this morning. If you call yourself a believer the Times is biased, why would they print an op-ed with such a title? Because sometimes the evidence is so overwhelming, the visuals so disgusting, the policies of telling Americans they need to rely on the Taliban to get to the airport (subsquently closed) to escape the takeover which would never happen for at least 90 days and the visual of murders in the street so incontrovertible that even the biased mind can't ignore what it sees.This one reason I take issue with making blanket statements about journalists and agencies. Your opinions don't support the truth, but it probably makes you feel good, or more likely smug.Apparently a blanket statement you can adopt.
    Sometimes you can't call a pile of manure a bed of roses.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    I honestly think your comprehension is compromised. Slow down. Now what is the writer trying to sayÖlol!

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    CN-
    No, I don't believe you "honestly" think my comprehension is compromised. You are sliding off point without responding. Please take some time away, and try to compose yourself.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Iím wasting time here. If others are interested, please respond to the topic.

  17. #54
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Sorry. There's no graceful way to lose a war.

    Rather than blaming Biden, why don't you look at those who got us there in the first place: Bush the Lesser (whose Daddy problem pivoted him to another costly debacle in Iraq), Tony Blair, the cheerleaders in the media (if it bleeds, it leads), and the stupid legislators who jumped on the bandwagon for war, as a way of getting more votes.

    Two lessons: 1) violence and military occupation is a bad way to teach democratic values; 2) Don't trust the military to tell the truth or judge their own performance. They will lie and obfuscate to get more money and more war toys.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    [QUOTE=TSherbs;333583]
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    To me there are three overarching themes or topics, each complex in its own right.

    1. Nation Building. It's a dumb idea. It worked twice, with two of the most rule-oriented societies on the planet. It has failed every time since. Doesn't matter if it's "regime change" via CIA coup or straight up military action. Doesn't work for a lot of reasons, and there's no real obligation (moral or legal) to do it.

    2. 20-Year War. Nope. It was a series of twenty, one-year wars. We never committed to it. People were much more worried about their report cards than any real progress. Lots of money was made, in every way you can imagine, by many nationalities.

    3. Responsibility. I once told an Afghan that we couldn't give them peace. We could only give them a chance. Truth is, they had their chance. They weren't willing to fight for it. The Taliban are, and that's why they're in Kabul.

    Lots of money and careers were made in 20 years. A lot of idiots dreamed we would turn it into some genteel western society. See those pictures from the 70's? Women in mini-skirts in Kabul?

    I always said I would be happy if we could just get it up to Deadwood.

    We've walked away. We should not go back except to carpet bomb somebody with a wing of B52's. We do need to make a considerable effort to get as many citizens out as we can though.

    I don't blame Joe, although it could have been much more orderly than the sneaking away in the middle of the night bullshit we saw, and the mess that has led to. I don't blame Trump either, or Obama or even Bush really. People will bludgeon each other politically over this for a while. It doesn't really matter if that's all the use people derive from it. D's and R's both voted for it, and had their turns administering it. This is a failure of the ideologues. The "smart" people. The bureaucrats and the bureaucracy. John Boltons and Susan Rices (pick others, left or right, if you like).

    It's done. Another empire consumed. Close the chapter on that book.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    No President in recent history would have any idea of what to do. That's ok. That's why they have cabinet folks, staff and advisors. The biggest differences you see between administrations revolve around that, not really the President. I can pick a topic for any of them - Obama, Trump, Biden, Bush, whoever... - and demonstrate a flip-flop. That's ok too, depending on the particulars.

    Trump didn't destroy ISIS. Mattis did. We would have probably seen something similar were he to have been reelected, but I'm not sure Esper was up to the task. To Trump's credit, he let the dogs of war off of the chain. No hand-wringing, no polling, just a decision. Again, it was Mattis that made it happen though.

    Biden's administration is largely former Obama folks. Those were the guys who just left Iraq. Those are the guys who gave the Queen of England an iPod and had the President bow to a Saudi. They're largely idealists and/or machine types. They have no idea why their ideas don't work in practice. The border, gas prices, Afghanistan, etc... That's ok, the Republicans have theirs too; ranging from the RINO old-school republican to the John Bolton's / H.R. McMaster / Don Rumsfeld etc... Those morons happily got a President and Congress to invade Iraq while we were at it, and then spent a shit-load of money. Just google "OCO dollars" or "OCO budget". That was the whole separate budget just for the wars and anything remotely related to them. But I digress...

    Afghanistan was always doomed to failure. The British period is about as relevant as the Greek invasion. Interesting history, but not much more. The Russian occupation is relevant. There are still minefields. The "Russian-fighters", whether Northern Alliance or Taliban or Arab Al-Qaeda type are still alive.

    I spent a year living in the middle of Kandahar. Afghans live a 9th century life, with some modern conveniences in the cities. Fly out to a remote village and it's a little green patch from what little water there is in the middle of a mountainous desert. You're never going to change this place, and anyone is an idiot for pushing it against whatever natural course it takes.

    Attachment 62766

    This is a place where Hobbes' State of Nature rules. Everyone is armed. It is tribal. It is harsh and brutal.

    There are Americans (not to mention our allies, to a lesser extent) all over the place. World Health Organization. World Food Organization. UN High Commission for Refugees offices. Provincial Reconstruction Teams. Contractors like you can't imagine. All these people should have been evacuated before the first major base closed. They're spread all over the country. Helmand, Herat, Kandahar, Mazar e Sharif, etc... Getting them out now is near impossible. Looks like DOD handled their move, and the NGOs either were blindsided or didn't prepare (a whole-of-government failure).

    This was inevitable. Reason Magazine has a pretty fair article about it HERE. Two West Pointer Captains wrote a "From the Taliban" sort of letter. They are exactly the type of red-team critical vulnerability thinkers we have many of - which is why I'm surprised no one thought of the NGOs.

    Anyway, I did my part. I tried to push against the Titanic to make my little piece of it better. Doesn't matter if I was successful or not at this point. I'm already seeing my terps sharing who has been hung in the Kandahar stadium, etc... I had six interpreters. All young men, early twenties. I know all their stories. One was killed. His name was Farhad and he was a brave Pashtun warrior who loved Bollywood. He was the most optimistic person I have ever met. He was perpetually happy. He's gone now. Here's to Farhad.

    Attachment 62767


    The other five have lived safely in the United States for the last 5 or 6 years. Most have wives and children now. Here's to them too.

    ---edit---

    The link to the Written in Taliban piece is HERE
    In light of the bombing your post, and its links, deserve repeating.
    Thank you.

  19. #56
    Senior Member Ron Z's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    I worked in professional radio in one capacity or another for 32 years. Lots of time (about 11/12 years) on air, live, listening to news casts, editing wire copy (AP and UPI), lots of time on the road as the engineer, to translators and stations listening to NPR and CBC in addition to other stations. It was interesting to watch the spin on a story develop after an initial event, and then then settle down to an echo chamber response on all of the liberal media. Its as if an email went out with the talking points on the subject. CBC is liberal, but then they didn't pretend to be unbiased either. What is not reported, the details that are left out, or are dropped change a story as much as what you are told. All that it takes is dropped sentence to make what one would consider to be a reasonable action in one hours news cast, to a total loner idiot in the next hours reading of what was otherwise the same script. Today there is no pretense of even, unbiased reporting. Its all about spin, with the result that my BS meter is pegged with both liberal and conservative sources.

    Every administration in the last 20 years screwed up in Afghanistan. The original mistake was going in. Biden just ended things with a spectacular screw up.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Read broadly and donít depend on radio or TV.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    CNN: McConnell: 'There isn't going to be an impeachment' of Biden.
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/polit...den/index.html

    Of course not. What has been done with the impeachment process (since 1990) for political reasons is a travesty.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Lest we forget, an interesting read. I read Bolton's books for an insider perspective.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/john...rrorist%20base.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    In a bombshell report on Aug. 31, Reuters reported on an audio recording of a July 23 call between Biden and then-Afghan President Ashraf Ghani. It released a transcript. In the call, Biden stated, ďI need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things arenít going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban.Ē

    Biden then gave Ghani his marching orders: ďAnd there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.Ē
    https://www.reuters.com/world/exclus...on-2021-08-31/

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