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Thread: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

  1. #81
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    A strictly opinion piece at WSJ. Although I don't agree with every point completely, I found it well argued. The author I believe correctly identifies the initial push of the pendulum, and the (now clearly) inevitable result of: Trump. I do wonder what the orange one will do in the future, and this hypothesis is as good as any.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-b...id-11631044792

    That might be behind a paywall. If it is, let me know and I'll cut and paste the pertinent text. As an aside, I've recently subscribed to and been using Apple News+ (really it just comes with the iCloud package I have). It is pretty much every news source from the "media bias" diagrams posted in a different thread. Oh, it has magazines too. Pretty much everything you could want, from cooking to cars to cabinetry to celebrities to the cosmos. I'm overwhelmed.

    Anyway, I'm often asked what news or news sources I read. Now it is this. I follow the national media, to include the biased ones. Basically I scan headlines to see what the current narrative is amongst the two mobs. Occasionally I'll run across one that attracts my attention enough to read, and occasionally I'm rewarded with something decent like this. Generally I just move on though, to topics I follow (about as diverse as the magazine selection). Apple curates what I follow and what I read, and pulls articles from all sources and highlights the ones it thinks you'll like. You can tell it to show more or less of a particular article, further influencing the algorithm, if you like.

    That might sound like a recipe for reinforcing a political echo-chamber. It certainly could be, and easily. It's useful for "cars" as a topic, or "woodworking", as examples though. I pick one or two of each extreme so I can watch the political noise-meter, and unfollow the rest. Then I can get more Economist, bon Apetit, Smithsonian, whatever. I'm about five days into playing with it, and it saves me a lot of work curating manually, so to speak. If you pay for Apple cloud stuff, you might look into if you already have it.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    @dneal, I applaud your recent changes in how you communicate here.

    Iíd probably prefer to do my own because of the reasons you said.

    Regarding the article you posted, I am surprised and glad at the same time. Whether you (generic you) liked him or not, Trump was not good for the nation. We are polarized and thatís dangerous.

    Iím hoping for a Kasich, Romney, or Paul Ryan. That said, Iím not sure they would have left Afghanistan any better.

    We need infrastructure or at least WIFI for all as well as healthcare and education for all and not just those who can afford if we hope to complete globally.

  3. #83
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    @Chuck Naill, I'm glad you seem to have joined the initiative toward civility.

    I'm indifferent to Trump, actually. His antics aren't new, and we've all watched him throughout his life/career. People didn't vote for him for him because they like his spray tan or his unique hairstyle. They voted for him because a loud brash man said some truths that resonated, and they figured what the hell, or even worse is they figured what do I have to lose... How bad are things, and what things are that mad that it would make so many people vote for Trump? That's the piece of the article that the left seems to miss. Green new deals, immigration, clean energy, etc... They were all presented to the average American by the left as a change they were going to get whether they liked it or not. Obama, AOC, Bernie, Liz Warren, etc... That is how we all got Trump.

    Those that voted for him a second time ignored the increased obnoxiousness because they put more value on gas prices, the economy as a whole, Trump calling out NATO and China, etc... His policy record and success, given that the congress and bureaucracy tried their best to slow-roll him, is actually impressive. But all that gets lost in the narrative.

    Now the narrative is so polarized each side just shouts the same slogans at each other. That has bothered me for a great while. Trump didn't start it, and Obama probably didn't either. Those two in particular were not the average politician. They each changed the game in a lot of ways. I can go back further, as I'm sure you can too, and pontificate; but that milk was spilt a long time ago.

    There is one thing from "days of yore" that popped in my head recently. I don't remember the specifics, and you could probably find several examples of it if you searched; but it was a Crossfire type Sunday show with all the guys we remember. Buckley, Buchanan, Rangel, Frank... you remember those days. Someone made the point of how they could be so politically different and still be friends. The reply was:

    "We disagree, but I never question their motive. Once you do that, it's over".

    That's what we see. Trump is a Racist. Obama is a Communist. Maybe there's substance behind those accusations, but it's motive-focused so I stop listening/reading/watching. I think this is the problem with the majority of the media. "We" (Americans as a whole) were happy to sit around the table or grill and talk politics and motive. The news generally left that out, and we believed what they told us. Truth or not, it was consensus and reasonable. Now entirely too much of the "news" is just opinion, which is fine if it's a thesis-supporting points and conclusion; but anymore it's not. It's assignment of motive. We can't agree on truth or facts, we're so busy ignoring it and shouting motive. That is what is a danger to the country - and it isn't just happening in the U.S.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Mark Sheilds made that statement once on a broadcast.

    I've watched Trump throught his career as well. I read books to understand different perspectives to see if I was going to far. I wasn't. Whatever his motives are were never important. I just focused on what he did and what he said. Motives don't matter if your dead, you're still dead.

    I feel that everyone should have an opportunity. I know African Americans have not had the same American experience white people have enjoyed. The same for women, Asians, and brown people as well. Liberal means being open to new ideas and making changes that improve everyone's opportunity. It will mean different things to different people.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    I think everyone does have an opportunity. As Morgan Freeman said, the bus leaves town every day. If people are willing to trek thousands of miles, ride in a shipping container across the Pacific, etc... To have an opportunity here... well I don't have a lot of sympathy for an American citizen that bemoans anything about their "plight". Get to work, and you can succeed. Fact.

    There are social safety nets. I am ok with that as long as they aren't safety nests. We have a problem with "welfare cliff". Can people talk about finding a "golden mean" with policy? A balance between virtue and vice, so to speak? Americans are a generous people, but they don't like getting taken. Is there a middle ground without ascribing motive?

    I think so, but not in today's political climate.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    I would suggest to any white person reading they educate themselves in black history in the US. Go back to forced migration, slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, lynchings. red lining. not being able to vote, and the Civil Rights movement. Unless you do, you're perspective will be lacking in accuracy and that's all I have to say.

    Compare generation wealth amoung races and how it occurs. Compare how the US treated Western Euorpean's coming with regard to land and how it treated former slaves. Compare union membership and white fear of free labor.

    As MLK said, "you don't tell a bootless man to pull himself up by his boot straps". W.E.B. DuBois's The Souls of Black Folk is a good primer.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I would suggest to any white person reading they educate themselves in black history in the US. Go back to forced migration, slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, lynchings. red lining. not being able to vote, and the Civil Rights movement. Unless you do, you're perspective will be lacking in accuracy and that's all I have to say.

    Compare generation wealth amoung races and how it occurs. Compare how the US treated Western Euorpean's coming with regard to land and how it treated former slaves. Compare union membership and white fear of free labor.

    As MLK said, "you don't tell a bootless man to pull himself up by his boot straps". W.E.B. DuBois's The Souls of Black Folk is a good primer.
    The problem I have with this type of post is that it is full of, well, motive (and implication, although it's not entirely clear what your implication/conclusion/solution is).

    The problem with where you are going is that although emotionally satisfying (for you anyway, it seems); you can't apply the logic universally. We can't right the "wrongs" of history. This is a problem with Israel/Palestine. Both sides say it's theirs, and point to different points in history. Should we find the Canaanites and give that region back to them? Should we make Israel pay reparations to the Midianites? Every man was slain, every woman made a concubine, and every child a slave.

    Pick the region, and I'll show you human atrocities. This notion that only white people did bad things doesn't make a lot of sense.

    I believe MLK also said something about judging content of character instead of color of skin. Maybe I was dreaming...
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    I donít have the time nor inclination to tutor you in American history.

    What I did, with the help of others, was to read several to many books on the topic. I will add this and no more, the information is readily available in most local libraries in the US.

    After you bring yourself up to speed, you will be embarrassed that you ever said it might be ďemotionally satisfying ď. Thatís laughable.

    I figured it was only a matter of time until you ran off the rails with your new and improved attitude.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Chuck, I thought you wanted civil conversation. If reading something you disagree with triggers you to the point you are unable or unwilling to articulate your point, perhaps you should take a break? The virus and politics have many people on edge and not thinking clearly.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    What is taught in American HS as American History is a crime.

    For those whites thinking itís a level playing field either, dig deeper or shame shame on you for thinking learning ended when you got your diploma.

  11. #91
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    You know Chuck, your tactic of "I have read the correct stuff and you haven't so I'm right and you're wrong" (I'm paraphrasing, of course), might be why you have so much difficulty here.

    Making a point that generally consists of a thesis, supporting point(s) and conclusion is often much better received. It's certainly easier to follow than imagining what stuff you potentially have read, that you say you won't "tutor" anyone on and won't even share. Your rebuttal essentially consists of "go to the library". I'm sorry, but I don't think you'll have much luck with that. It's simply not very compelling.



    I read books to understand different perspectives to see if I was going to far. I wasn't.
    I would suggest to any white person reading they educate themselves in black history in the US. Go back to forced migration, slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, lynchings. red lining. not being able to vote, and the Civil Rights movement. Unless you do, you're perspective will be lacking in accuracy and that's all I have to say.
    I donít have the time nor inclination to tutor you in American history.

    What I did, with the help of others, was to read several to many books on the topic. I will add this and no more, the information is readily available in most local libraries in the US.
    Be your own tenth man.

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