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Thread: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

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    Default Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Thoughts or discussion points?

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Sure. The "silence" here the past few days has been deafening.
    Every time Trump so much as sneezed during his time in office the usual gang here got started with all their usual shock, rage and inane accusations.
    Well, where have they been the last 5 days or so??

    Trump, on his worst day, never humiliated Americans (or infuriated world leaders) more than what Biden has accomplished with his Afghanistan screw-up. Never.
    And, you want to talk about "the big lie?" Well, just tune into any of Biden's defiant public comments about this disgrace which he and he alone has created.

    In 2014 Robert Gates (OBAMA'S Defense Secretary) said the following about Biden: "I think he has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades.”
    Now Biden's own senior team members are on record for making it clear Biden was advised, by them, to not do what he did........ Nothing has changed.

    Some of us were aware of Biden's many dangerous shortcomings and we were worried what we might be getting into if he were elected President. Not that we loved Trump or refused to acknowledge that there were some problems with him. He was, simply, the lesser of the two evils. Others not so much, largely because they were so upset about the latest tempest in a teapot they were perpetuating about Trump.

    From any and every perspective our Country is much worse off now that it was on January 20, 2021. And, Biden is only 8 months into his term! Worse, taking him out is a non-option because Kamela has proven herself to be a real disaster waiting to happen.

    Well guys, what are you thinking now?? You got what you wanted. I hope you are happy!

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    To me there are three overarching themes or topics, each complex in its own right.

    1. Nation Building. It's a dumb idea. It worked twice, with two of the most rule-oriented societies on the planet. It has failed every time since. Doesn't matter if it's "regime change" via CIA coup or straight up military action. Doesn't work for a lot of reasons, and there's no real obligation (moral or legal) to do it.

    2. 20-Year War. Nope. It was a series of twenty, one-year wars. We never committed to it. People were much more worried about their report cards than any real progress. Lots of money was made, in every way you can imagine, by many nationalities.

    3. Responsibility. I once told an Afghan that we couldn't give them peace. We could only give them a chance. Truth is, they had their chance. They weren't willing to fight for it. The Taliban are, and that's why they're in Kabul.

    Lots of money and careers were made in 20 years. A lot of idiots dreamed we would turn it into some genteel western society. See those pictures from the 70's? Women in mini-skirts in Kabul?

    I always said I would be happy if we could just get it up to Deadwood.

    We've walked away. We should not go back except to carpet bomb somebody with a wing of B52's. We do need to make a considerable effort to get as many citizens out as we can though.

    I don't blame Joe, although it could have been much more orderly than the sneaking away in the middle of the night bullshit we saw, and the mess that has led to. I don't blame Trump either, or Obama or even Bush really. People will bludgeon each other politically over this for a while. It doesn't really matter if that's all the use people derive from it. D's and R's both voted for it, and had their turns administering it. This is a failure of the ideologues. The "smart" people. The bureaucrats and the bureaucracy. John Boltons and Susan Rices (pick others, left or right, if you like).

    It's done. Another empire consumed. Close the chapter on that book.
    Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Sure. The "silence" here the past few days has been deafening.
    Every time Trump so much as sneezed during his time in office the usual gang here got started with all their usual shock, rage and inane accusations.
    Well, where have they been the last 5 days or so??

    Trump, on his worst day, never humiliated Americans (or infuriated world leaders) more than what Biden has accomplished with his Afghanistan screw-up. Never.
    And, you want to talk about "the big lie?" Well, just tune into any of Biden's defiant public comments about this disgrace which he and he alone has created.
    Where have we been? Waiting for someone to begin a thread with spurious claims like these, I guess. Where you been?

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Sure. The "silence" here the past few days has been deafening.
    Every time Trump so much as sneezed during his time in office the usual gang here got started with all their usual shock, rage and inane accusations.
    Well, where have they been the last 5 days or so??

    Trump, on his worst day, never humiliated Americans (or infuriated world leaders) more than what Biden has accomplished with his Afghanistan screw-up. Never.
    And, you want to talk about "the big lie?" Well, just tune into any of Biden's defiant public comments about this disgrace which he and he alone has created.
    Where have we been? Waiting for someone to begin a thread with spurious claims like these, I guess. Where you been?
    Thanks for your reply. Let's not worry about where either of us have been. That will get us nowhere. Why not we start at the present? Right here, right now. My post and your reply to it.
    Please list what I have written which is a "spurious" claim.
    The Gates quote?
    The "on the record" comments made by Biden's senior advisors?

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    To me there are three overarching themes or topics, each complex in its own right.

    1. Nation Building. It's a dumb idea. It worked twice, with two of the most rule-oriented societies on the planet. It has failed every time since. Doesn't matter if it's "regime change" via CIA coup or straight up military action. Doesn't work for a lot of reasons, and there's no real obligation (moral or legal) to do it.

    2. 20-Year War. Nope. It was a series of twenty, one-year wars. We never committed to it. People were much more worried about their report cards than any real progress. Lots of money was made, in every way you can imagine, by many nationalities.

    3. Responsibility. I once told an Afghan that we couldn't give them peace. We could only give them a chance. Truth is, they had their chance. They weren't willing to fight for it. The Taliban are, and that's why they're in Kabul.

    Lots of money and careers were made in 20 years. A lot of idiots dreamed we would turn it into some genteel western society. See those pictures from the 70's? Women in mini-skirts in Kabul?

    I always said I would be happy if we could just get it up to Deadwood.

    We've walked away. We should not go back except to carpet bomb somebody with a wing of B52's. We do need to make a considerable effort to get as many citizens out as we can though.

    I don't blame Joe, although it could have been much more orderly than the sneaking away in the middle of the night bullshit we saw, and the mess that has led to. I don't blame Trump either, or Obama or even Bush really. People will bludgeon each other politically over this for a while. It doesn't really matter if that's all the use people derive from it. D's and R's both voted for it, and had their turns administering it. This is a failure of the ideologues. The "smart" people. The bureaucrats and the bureaucracy. John Boltons and Susan Rices (pick others, left or right, if you like).

    It's done. Another empire consumed. Close the chapter on that book.
    The tragic history of modern Afghanistan goes back to the Brits and their failed attempts at empire. Then the Russians thought they could subdue it. Then the Americans thought that they could "build" a modern democracy there (sort of, that's what they said). We were also hellbent on tracking down Bin Laden. The other problem in America is the difficulty of being a representative for office and voting against the jingoistic myths of American machismo and exceptionalism. Doing so tends to mark the end of a political career, regardless of being in the right.

    America has received exactly what it deserves in this outcome. But the decent folk of Afghanistan have not.

    Blame whoever you want. I am not going to defend Biden personally, but there is no need to be spurious in ones claims against him.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    To me there are three overarching themes or topics, each complex in its own right.

    1. Nation Building. It's a dumb idea. It worked twice, with two of the most rule-oriented societies on the planet. It has failed every time since. Doesn't matter if it's "regime change" via CIA coup or straight up military action. Doesn't work for a lot of reasons, and there's no real obligation (moral or legal) to do it.

    2. 20-Year War. Nope. It was a series of twenty, one-year wars. We never committed to it. People were much more worried about their report cards than any real progress. Lots of money was made, in every way you can imagine, by many nationalities.

    3. Responsibility. I once told an Afghan that we couldn't give them peace. We could only give them a chance. Truth is, they had their chance. They weren't willing to fight for it. The Taliban are, and that's why they're in Kabul.

    Lots of money and careers were made in 20 years. A lot of idiots dreamed we would turn it into some genteel western society. See those pictures from the 70's? Women in mini-skirts in Kabul?

    I always said I would be happy if we could just get it up to Deadwood.

    We've walked away. We should not go back except to carpet bomb somebody with a wing of B52's. We do need to make a considerable effort to get as many citizens out as we can though.

    I don't blame Joe, although it could have been much more orderly than the sneaking away in the middle of the night bullshit we saw, and the mess that has led to. I don't blame Trump either, or Obama or even Bush really. People will bludgeon each other politically over this for a while. It doesn't really matter if that's all the use people derive from it. D's and R's both voted for it, and had their turns administering it. This is a failure of the ideologues. The "smart" people. The bureaucrats and the bureaucracy. John Boltons and Susan Rices (pick others, left or right, if you like).

    It's done. Another empire consumed. Close the chapter on that book.
    Well stated. 👍

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Sure. The "silence" here the past few days has been deafening.
    Every time Trump so much as sneezed during his time in office the usual gang here got started with all their usual shock, rage and inane accusations.
    Well, where have they been the last 5 days or so??

    Trump, on his worst day, never humiliated Americans (or infuriated world leaders) more than what Biden has accomplished with his Afghanistan screw-up. Never.
    And, you want to talk about "the big lie?" Well, just tune into any of Biden's defiant public comments about this disgrace which he and he alone has created.
    Where have we been? Waiting for someone to begin a thread with spurious claims like these, I guess. Where you been?
    Thanks for your reply. Let's not worry about where either of us have been. That will get us nowhere. Why not we start at the present? Right here, right now. My post and your reply to it.
    Please list what I have written which is a "spurious" claim.
    The Gates quote?
    The "on the record" comments made by Biden's senior advisors?
    "which he and he alone has created"

    That's poppycock, seney. As if the mess of Afghanistan is any one person's fault "alone." I mean, really. This would be like my claiming that Jan 6 was the result of Trump and "Trump alone." That would be equally spurious.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Sure. The "silence" here the past few days has been deafening.
    Every time Trump so much as sneezed during his time in office the usual gang here got started with all their usual shock, rage and inane accusations.
    Well, where have they been the last 5 days or so??

    Trump, on his worst day, never humiliated Americans (or infuriated world leaders) more than what Biden has accomplished with his Afghanistan screw-up. Never.
    And, you want to talk about "the big lie?" Well, just tune into any of Biden's defiant public comments about this disgrace which he and he alone has created.
    Where have we been? Waiting for someone to begin a thread with spurious claims like these, I guess. Where you been?
    Thanks for your reply. Let's not worry about where either of us have been. That will get us nowhere. Why not we start at the present? Right here, right now. My post and your reply to it.
    Please list what I have written which is a "spurious" claim.
    The Gates quote?
    The "on the record" comments made by Biden's senior advisors?
    "which he and he alone has created"

    That's poppycock, seney. As if the mess of Afghanistan is any one person's fault "alone." I mean, really. This would be like my claiming that Jan 6 was the result of Trump and "Trump alone." That would be equally spurious.
    Blaming Biden for the entire 20 year disaster is not what I intended to convey. But, in rereading my comments I can see where one might have interpreted them as such. I apologize.
    For the entire Afghanistan experience, I agree 100% with what dneal has said.

    Let me try again.
    What I was referring to in my comment "which he and he alone has created" was simply what has transpired over the past 5 +/- days. Don't take my word for it, his own senior advisors say so!! He acted against their advice. And, now, has the gall to deny it and maintain he did nothing wrong.
    Seriously Joe??? Even CNN does not buy that......!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Blame whoever you want. I am not going to defend Biden personally, but there is no need to be spurious in ones claims against him.
    What are you talking about? Why even quote my post?

    This is why we can’t have discussion here. You and your type go straight to strawmen and insulting. “Spurious?”

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Blame whoever you want. I am not going to defend Biden personally, but there is no need to be spurious in ones claims against him.
    What are you talking about? Why even quote my post?

    This is why we can’t have discussion here. You and your type go straight to strawmen and insulting. “Spurious?”
    dneal, I think TSherbs "spurious" comment was directed towards me and not you.

    I have tried to clarify what I meant by that comment which he cited as "spurious." Hopefully, my point is more clear now. If it is understood in the correct context it is anything but "spurious."
    Hopefully TSherbs will agree given that Biden's own senior advisors "on the record" words formed the foundation for comment!

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    May I add, I’m a complete novice of course. However, even I would have engaged all parties. How can you agree to give a nation over without involvement of the said nation’s leaders, to which you’ve been engaged??!

    And, how do you not have a evacuation plan?

    I do not think Bush, Obama, Trump, or Biden to do any better. Bush could run a gifted baseball club so he got into government….lol!

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    I am not interested in defending Biden's decision. Rail away.

    Seney, you began the discussion with a broad swipe at people for being "silent" on Biden, as if not starting threads was some sort of indicator of something. A quick look at these political threads will indicate to you who starts them. I rarely start threads in any of the forums. Just not my thing, mostly.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Blame whoever you want. I am not going to defend Biden personally, but there is no need to be spurious in ones claims against him.
    What are you talking about? Why even quote my post?

    This is why we can’t have discussion here. You and your type go straight to strawmen and insulting. “Spurious?”
    See sene's response.

    And this is not why we can't have a conversation.

    I inadvertently quoted your post. It was an error.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Seney, you began the discussion with a broad swipe at people for being "silent" on Biden
    I guess I was more clear with that comment since you interpreted it 100% correct TSherbs. For four years every time Trump so much as squeaked there was a predictable chorus of "the sky is falling," boo birds. I really don't know how many of them you initiated nor do I care. I'm sure you would acknowledge you have been a frequent participant.

    Well, Trump is gone. Meanwhile our current President has quickly proven himself to be a bigger bonehead than his predecessor was on his worst day.

    Trust me, had the same group of uber critical people begun to initiate or participate in threads which highlighted all of the really awful and stupid things Biden has done, I would have posted a compliment praising them for proving that they were not partisan, after all. But, no, like the mainstream media they have been silent. Biden is getting a pass on transgressions that folks would have crucified Trump for.............

    So, I stand by my comment. The silence has been deafening.

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    No President in recent history would have any idea of what to do. That's ok. That's why they have cabinet folks, staff and advisors. The biggest differences you see between administrations revolve around that, not really the President. I can pick a topic for any of them - Obama, Trump, Biden, Bush, whoever... - and demonstrate a flip-flop. That's ok too, depending on the particulars.

    Trump didn't destroy ISIS. Mattis did. We would have probably seen something similar were he to have been reelected, but I'm not sure Esper was up to the task. To Trump's credit, he let the dogs of war off of the chain. No hand-wringing, no polling, just a decision. Again, it was Mattis that made it happen though.

    Biden's administration is largely former Obama folks. Those were the guys who just left Iraq. Those are the guys who gave the Queen of England an iPod and had the President bow to a Saudi. They're largely idealists and/or machine types. They have no idea why their ideas don't work in practice. The border, gas prices, Afghanistan, etc... That's ok, the Republicans have theirs too; ranging from the RINO old-school republican to the John Bolton's / H.R. McMaster / Don Rumsfeld etc... Those morons happily got a President and Congress to invade Iraq while we were at it, and then spent a shit-load of money. Just google "OCO dollars" or "OCO budget". That was the whole separate budget just for the wars and anything remotely related to them. But I digress...

    Afghanistan was always doomed to failure. The British period is about as relevant as the Greek invasion. Interesting history, but not much more. The Russian occupation is relevant. There are still minefields. The "Russian-fighters", whether Northern Alliance or Taliban or Arab Al-Qaeda type are still alive.

    I spent a year living in the middle of Kandahar. Afghans live a 9th century life, with some modern conveniences in the cities. Fly out to a remote village and it's a little green patch from what little water there is in the middle of a mountainous desert. You're never going to change this place, and anyone is an idiot for pushing it against whatever natural course it takes.

    DSC00152.jpeg

    This is a place where Hobbes' State of Nature rules. Everyone is armed. It is tribal. It is harsh and brutal.

    There are Americans (not to mention our allies, to a lesser extent) all over the place. World Health Organization. World Food Organization. UN High Commission for Refugees offices. Provincial Reconstruction Teams. Contractors like you can't imagine. All these people should have been evacuated before the first major base closed. They're spread all over the country. Helmand, Herat, Kandahar, Mazar e Sharif, etc... Getting them out now is near impossible. Looks like DOD handled their move, and the NGOs either were blindsided or didn't prepare (a whole-of-government failure).

    This was inevitable. Reason Magazine has a pretty fair article about it HERE. Two West Pointer Captains wrote a "From the Taliban" sort of letter. They are exactly the type of red-team critical vulnerability thinkers we have many of - which is why I'm surprised no one thought of the NGOs.

    Anyway, I did my part. I tried to push against the Titanic to make my little piece of it better. Doesn't matter if I was successful or not at this point. I'm already seeing my terps sharing who has been hung in the Kandahar stadium, etc... I had six interpreters. All young men, early twenties. I know all their stories. One was killed. His name was Farhad and he was a brave Pashtun warrior who loved Bollywood. He was the most optimistic person I have ever met. He was perpetually happy. He's gone now. Here's to Farhad.

    IMG_0108.jpeg


    The other five have lived safely in the United States for the last 5 or 6 years. Most have wives and children now. Here's to them too.

    ---edit---

    The link to the Written in Taliban piece is HERE
    Last edited by dneal; August 19th, 2021 at 05:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Seney, you began the discussion with a broad swipe at people for being "silent" on Biden
    .....
    So, I stand by my comment. The silence has been deafening.
    Like I said, rail on. I have no interest in defending Biden on this. Fill the "silence" if you don't like it.

    And just to put the matter to rest so that you can get back on topic, I have never claimed not to be partisan and biased when it comes to Trump. Don't expect equal play from me. There are other GOP members that I also won't pay much attention to. I am not an equal opportunity critic. I don't have the time or interest in that.

    So, back to Biden now. Make some noise, seney!



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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    .
    . But, no, like the mainstream media they have been silent.
    This is not accurate. Every outlet I have looked at has been highlighting the chaos of this withdrawal and has been investigating the wisdom (or lack) of this decision.

    I don't know wtf you could possibly be referring to, especially since Fox, the largest network in America, has been all over this (and not just them). Your various swipes against groups seem ill-informed.

    Do you recognize that Fox is "mainstream"?



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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    .
    . But, no, like the mainstream media they have been silent.
    This is not accurate. Every outlet I have looked at has been highlighting the chaos of this withdrawal and has been investigating the wisdom (or lack) of this decision.

    I don't know wtf you could possibly be referring to, especially since Fox, the largest network in America, has been all over this (and not just them). Your various swipes against groups seem ill-informed.

    Do you recognize that Fox is "mainstream"?



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    Seriously TSherbs????
    1. Are you denying that the mainstream media has totally protected Biden and kept major stories about him off of their networks ever since he became the Democratic nominee?
    2. Aren't you aware that Fox News refers to this practice as one characteristic of what they call "the main stream media" and its ongoing bias /active efforts to keep their viewers & subscribers in the dark about information which might influence their opinion about Biden in a negative direction?

    Sure, all of them are covering this latest fiasco but, honestly, how could they not?? Every literate human being in the world is aware of and horrified by it. It may well be the USA's darkest day in the eyes of the world.

    Talk about ill informed.................

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    Default Re: Trump, then Biden Afghanistan Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    But, no, like the mainstream media they have been silent.

    Sure, all of them are covering this latest fiasco but, honestly, how could they not??....
    Both those statements are yours. You can't simultaneously claim they are "silent" on the matter AND admit that they are all covering it.

    Whatever, time for bed where I am...



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