The perennial dilemma - which pen?

[Jon Szanto]

Dunno that either. Kind of losing interest in the search, and it is exacerbated by the extreme dearth of long term reviews, which suggests to me that most owners of luxury pens have a sharp drop-off in enthusiasm post purchase honeymoon, and swiftly move on to the 'next new thing'.

You are totally disregarding the concept that a lot of people just aren't into constantly talking about the pens they own and write with. Many of my earliest and best pens are still in constant use, but I have no reason to go on and on about them. I just use them.

[catbert]

I suspect long-term reviews would tell you more about changes in the user than changes in the pen.

I was not puppy-dog enthused about my Lamy 2000 when I first got it. Now the barrel width is fine and I enjoy the architecty quality of the EF nib.

What do you hope to learn from longtime users of the pens on your short list?

[empliau]

I cannot help you with the Visconti, but I received a MB 149 as a gift in 1982. I used it on and off, always with pleasure, but the nib is a F or EF and I prefer BB and above. So it was an occasional writer until about 2003, when I began to use it as my primary grading pen. Multiple times per semester I write with it for many hours. For years I used Pelikan Violet and then about 2013 switched to Yama-Budo. I switched for variety, but both inks worked fine. The pen is reliable and a joy to use. I have two main hands, one a modified (very modified due to laziness and injury) italic, another more vertical. The nib works perfectly on multiple angles, the barrel size has always been very comfortable for long periods of work, and the threads are not a problem for me.

What might bother some: nib creep is a feature for this pen, not a bug, and although it works posted or unposted, the cap is heavy enough that it's fallen off when I've posted it carelessly. Luckily it always only falls a few inches to the desk and is unharmed so far, knock wood.

I hope you find a pen that brings you as much joy as my 149 has brought me.

[Lloyd]

I think for every pen on your list, you'll find a long term owner. By default, long time owners like the pen's they own or they'd have sold them away.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[catbert]

It was a generalisation of course.

What do I hope to learn from a long-term review? How well the pen held up to daily ab/use. How heavy that use was. If there were issues with certain inks. Issues with angle of nib to paper. Issues with comfort over time (like the threads felt fine to start with, but eventually got up my goat). Did they do any modifications to it. Would they buy it again.

You know, the usual stuff.

Yes, I got that you were generalizing. Was trying, too obscurely, to suggest you might get more useful information from specific questions — which empliau’s reply above seems to confirm

Not everyone wants to review their pens but there must be a bunch of geeks with relevant knowledge to share if you make it easy. Perhaps a short, focused survey could tap into that?

Of course all this may be irrelevant now you’ve settled on an M800. I hope you find one you like.

[Lloyd]

Going for the M805 Streseman, thanks to pretty much nobody on here.

I'm sorry you feel so negative about this here, and I hope this pen exceeds your hopes.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Jon Szanto]

Going for the M805 Streseman, thanks to pretty much nobody on here.

I think back to the many times I've attempted to help you out on many matters this obsessive, including offline contacts. This is the kind of ungrateful attitude that gets returned. And I'm not alone, many people have tried to give you feedback, experiential anecdotes, lots more. You kick them in the teeth instead.

Enjoy your M800, they can be wonderful pens.

[Lloyd]

I am not ungrateful to those that do help - though I get the sense that some engage on these threads just for amusement/entertainment.

I freely acknowledge that one or two people have reached out to help on occasion, but it really is a tiny number. What I have written here is not a reflection on that tiny minority. My apologies to those who may read it that way. It is aimed at everyone else, especially those who I recall in earlier times touted the whole we are a community bullshit. By contrast, if you ask me for help you will get what I can offer irrespective of my personal thoughts of you.


My reflections in this thread speaks to the feel of the forum as a whole rather than specific people. And once again it is exasperating that what is thrown in my face when I make a generalisation is a specific example, essentially an outlier. That is not how statistics work I'm afraid.

In general, I never felt this was largely a warm community. There are a few members who I see as truly wanting to embrace all others. However, I found FPN, with all of its warts, to be far more pleasant. Sadly, I detest their software....a terrible reason for a forum that used to bring me a lot of joy to become virtually dead to me.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[catbert]

Understood. Do you seriously believe that the more knowledgeable members here will entertain a direct request for info from me? I could make a survey - it is one of things I do in my research work quite often - but again it would run into existing prejudice. It is quite different from the responses I get on Reddit, which are generally inclusive and courteous. Which is why I shifted my inquiry to there, and spend more time there than here.

Going for the M805 Streseman, thanks to pretty much nobody on here. Just waiting to see if there are going to be any good Easter deals.

Oddly enough, I do believe some here would respond to a survey. At the risk of generalizing, hobbyists like talking about their hobbies. Otherwise, why are we here?

A quick glance back through this thread yields (very) roughly 40% of posts offering information or experience, 40% replies and updates from you, and 20% other (including wishes of good health and my vain attempt to nudge you towards specifics and then clarify what I was doing). Not too shabby a hit rate on a moving target.

However, I also think the pens you were considering have been around long enough that if any had a fatal flaw you’d have read about it by now. Most likely you could acquire and enjoy any one of them without putting yourself through the ordeal of seeking advice from a crowd you consider antagonistic and who don't understand your preferences any better than you seem to.

FWIW, among modern Pelikans, I'd go for a Stresemann too. Kind of wish I'd done so before the recent change in transparency.

[catbert]

Edit: there were four posts referencing Pelikan. Two about experiences and two discussing corporate buyouts. That's a 0.04% hit rate. Not so good.

The Pelikan decision came towards the end of the thread. Not counting responses about other pens on the shortlist is the definition of a moving target.

I freely admit to being crap at statistics but doesn't four out of 100 make 4%? On-brand of you to make things a hundred times worse than they are.

Also, I wouldn't include your posts in the denominator. That leaves four relevant responses by your definition out of 60ish. It's on the low end of acceptable for a survey response, but this wasn't a survey.

Seriously, though — I hope you love your new pen.

[catbert]

Typo on the maths. Please beat me to death with it because nobody else ever makes such slips.


BTW, in my line of work an acceptable response rate to a survey is >60%. It used to be >80% but it appears there is a degree of participant fatigue involved in falling numbers, especially when the same or similar populations are the target.

Participant fatigue sounds about right.
Again — sincerely — I hope you love your new pen.

[catbert]

The participant fatigue has nothing to do with me personally. It is seen everywhere that targets 'captured' populations. Probably inevitable, and certainly exacerbated by the pandemic as surveys have become a more common tool in research in the absence of in-person data collection.

Understood. I meant my own fatigue.

[dneal]

Back on topic, given your general criteria - why not a custom Edison like bunnspecial's? I like the size and the shape, clipless or roll-stopper seems cool too. Ebonite is cool. I probably wouldn't spend extra on the pump filler unless I was using a translucent material though.

[bunnspecial]

Back on topic, given your general criteria - why not a custom Edison like bunnspecial's? I like the size and the shape, clipless or roll-stopper seems cool too. Ebonite is cool. I probably wouldn't spend extra on the pump filler unless I was using a translucent material though.

Although I love the ebonite, I am kind of second guessing spending the extra $100 on the draw filler on an opaque material even though I like the size.

I'm already sort of thinking about another given how much I love my recently acquired one(maybe one of the flat top models just for something different) but if I go ebonite it will likely be C/C and if I do a draw filler it will be at least one of the translucent acrylics(not a big fan of demonstrators, but I like what you might call "semi-demonstrators" like Vacumatics where you have some color/pattern to the plastic but also can see something about what's going on). We'll see, though-I'm just tossing the next one around and haven't even initiated any communication about it.

I generally carry my pens so I like clips, but at the same time something with a roll stop would be very interesting.

The beauty, though, is that Brian will work with you to get exactly what you want. As much as I've enjoyed my Indian pens(where Ranga will do some customization), the Edisons are on a different level both in finish and in what can be customized on them.

[catbert]

Ah, snark. Of course. Why did I not consider that?

It wasn’t — though I see how you got there. Not everything is about you or against you. But believe what you will.

I appreciated your interesting aside on research (which I should have acknowledged at the time — apologies). I wonder if your experience created unrealistic expectations about the response from pen people with other stuff to deal with (hence ‘fatigue’). Back in the days of mail shots, marketers told me a 5–10% response was considered ok for a survey without incentives. That said, they weren't the best marketers ...

To further muddy the water re pen choice, have you seen the 'special edition souverän 605 tortoiseshell-black' coming next month?

[catbert]

Ah, snark. Of course. Why did I not consider that?

It wasn’t — though I see how you got there. Not everything is about you or against you. But believe what you will.

I appreciated your interesting aside on research (which I should have acknowledged at the time — apologies). I wonder if your experience created unrealistic expectations about the response from pen people with other stuff to deal with (hence ‘fatigue’). Back in the days of mail shots, marketers told me a 5–10% response was considered ok for a survey without incentives. That said, they weren't the best marketers ...

To further muddy the water re pen choice, have you seen the 'special edition souverän 605 tortoiseshell-black' coming next month?

And if you had heard me say what was in the quote you would have realised it contained a modicum of self-denigrating humour. The gulf between writing and speaking, how often I forget this, and how often I also forget that you guys have never met me and would not make that connection.

Probably on the survey response rates. Our vade mecum is the work by Don A. Dillman, especially The Tailored Design Method with its recent updates for the electronic age. There may be a significant difference in perceptions and behaviours on the part of the target audience based on where and why they are getting a survey in the mail of course.

Glad to hear it, and thanks for the reference.

I see the Pelikan's Perch has expanded on Pelikan's Instagram announcement re the 605: https://thepelikansperch.com/2022/04...ack-announced/

[dneal]

Back on topic, given your general criteria - why not a custom Edison like bunnspecial's? I like the size and the shape, clipless or roll-stopper seems cool too. Ebonite is cool. I probably wouldn't spend extra on the pump filler unless I was using a translucent material though.

I won't buy another pen from an independent maker when for the same money I can get a nice gold nib in a tried and true format from a regular company.

Also, with Edison anything that deviates from their production run gets the price jacked up enormously. $100 extra for changing this production acrylic rod for that non-production acrylic rod? Yeah, nah. The returns are simply not worth the expense. And besides which I can get Jowo nibs anywhere. As for ebonite, I have a couple of Rangas and I find ebonite is just meh. It doesn't feel any different in the hand to me than other materials. It's only redeeming feature is that I like the smell of it.

Ok.

Point was that you don't have to spend $600+ on something like a Nakaya or whatever a 149 is going for today. You can have any of many penmakers turn you a long cigar shape with nice girth. All your length, dimension and material problems solved. You pick and they make it.

I will quibble about Jowo #6's though. Although I have a slight preference for Bock, industrial German nibs work just fine. Jowo is on par. Those bouncy Conway Stewarts of their last real hey-day were industrial German nibs. Visconti? Same.

Now there's that flexible nib dot com company selling ebonite feeds and housings for Jowo #6's? Shit, I might just have to look into this. They have feeds and housings for about everything. Want a stiff 21k Sailor? No problem. Pilot #5? Check.

God love you, but you do seem to have a quibble with most production pens and your hand anatomy (I can relate...). So make the pen you want for $3-400 bucks.

[bunnspecial]

No, I will not go the penmaker route again. Too many negative experiences notwithstanding the few decent pens I have (and they are by no means perfect). The interactions I've had with some of the more mainstream makers leave me with the impression that they are not nice people and best avoided. They behave unprofessionally toward prospective customers, and thus IMO lack principles or integrity.

So, that put away, leaves modern companies. While it's not an absolute rule I prefer flat top designs over torpedoes. There is also the visual aesthetic of the nibs: a Pelikan nib looks terrific, a Jowo gold nib looks like a chunk of uninteresting plain gold. Superficial I know, but I did say that some of my decision factors are superficial.

The overall point is that I would like to acquire a luxury pen. Independent penmakers are IME nowhere near that level of quality, and there are limited company options in the price range that I am willing to entertain. It's really just an exercise in discarding. At present I am waiting on a decent deal for a brand new Pelikan M8xx.

Out of curiosity, with which makers have you dealt and what about their behavior to you find unprofessional?

I have purchased pens from two different makers-Edison and Ranga. They are very different companies, and very different companies operating in very different cultures.

I did have specific requests that neither could honor(cap band on a Ranga, filling system on Edison) but in both cases there were reasons. I asked for a pump filler on my Edison, but they no longer offer it(for reasons that were explained to me). The specific model of Ranga I wanted I was told was not suitable for a cap band. I also asked for a specific material pattern on my Edison, and was told it was no longer available but was offered the most similar alternative.

Both companies were a pleasure to work with, and I'd guess I exchanged 20 emails discussing options, etc, with Brian Gray including him ultimately suggesting a different model based on what I told him on size preferences.

Both pens I'm quite pleased with the fit and finish. My Ranga has smooth cap threads, although I might prefer it requiring fewer turns, and the cap to body fit is excellent(the particular model I have has the cap flush with the body). My Edison-the blind cap would be invisible if it had been possible to match the patterns exactly(which I don't think would be as there would not be a practical way I can think of to make it out of one piece of material). It's far better than the vintage Parkers it's ultimately patterned after. The cap fits more snugly than my newest Montblancs(one of which, BTW, I should have tomorrow-the 146C), and unlike EVERY.SINGLE modern Pelikan I've owned, the cap actually stays on in my pocket.

Perhaps my standards aren't that stringent for good customer service or for fit and finish, but I can't complain about those two particular ones.

[Jon Szanto]

I was very open with you via email as you said you were happy to have that conversation. You never followed up (again), so now I really regret trusting you with some of my inner thoughts. One-shot messages do not represent bridge building.

Well, that is a shame. A friend alerted me to this post, and I was certain I had replied to your email. While it may have been an issue during a period when our domain was switching email hosting services, I think it is far more likely an annoying culprit: the ever-increasing cognitive deficiencies of an aging man. And it's true: I am becoming more forgetful with each passing month, requiring lists to make an attempt to keep track of just these things.

I'll get one off and then we can be done with it, if you like. My shrinking number of brain cells offer their apology.

[dneal]

No, I will not go the penmaker route again. Too many negative experiences notwithstanding the few decent pens I have (and they are by no means perfect). The interactions I've had with some of the more mainstream makers leave me with the impression that they are not nice people and best avoided. They behave unprofessionally toward prospective customers, and thus IMO lack principles or integrity.

So, that put away, leaves modern companies. While it's not an absolute rule I prefer flat top designs over torpedoes. There is also the visual aesthetic of the nibs: a Pelikan nib looks terrific, a Jowo gold nib looks like a chunk of uninteresting plain gold. Superficial I know, but I did say that some of my decision factors are superficial.

The overall point is that I would like to acquire a luxury pen. Independent penmakers are IME nowhere near that level of quality, and there are limited company options in the price range that I am willing to entertain. It's really just an exercise in discarding. At present I am waiting on a decent deal for a brand new Pelikan M8xx.

Some awfully broad brushes in there.