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Thread: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

  1. #41
    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    That or great swaths of wonderful, useable pens sit around unused and unenjoyed*.

    *is this to begrudge collecting? not a bit...most vintage pens aren't of particular interest as collection-only pens.
    This brings up a question in my mind. Why is a vintage pen, as a part of a collection, considered "unenjoyed" if it's not being used to write?

    I have a lot of pens in my collection that I don't use regularly, yet I enjoy them thoroughly even when I simply remembered that I still have them. And those to a degree also guide what I am watching for to get next. It's the joy of curating a collection.

    I would think that counts as enjoyment, can it not?
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    That or great swaths of wonderful, useable pens sit around unused and unenjoyed*.

    *is this to begrudge collecting? not a bit...most vintage pens aren't of particular interest as collection-only pens.
    This brings up a question in my mind. Why is a vintage pen, as a part of a collection, considered "unenjoyed" if it's not being used to write?

    I have a lot of pens in my collection that I don't use regularly, yet I enjoy them thoroughly even when I simply remembered that I still have them. And those to a degree also guide what I am watching for to get next. It's the joy of curating a collection.

    I would think that counts as enjoyment, can it not?
    I did inadvertently imply this, but I actually agree--pens in a collection don't have to be used to be enjoyed. My point was that there are many vintage pens which aren't of particular interest to most collectors--whether on account of their condition or commonality--which are perfectly useable.
    Will
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    ...
    It's the joy of curating a collection.
    ...

    I couldn‘t agree more!

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    [QUOTE=penwash;335780]
    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    It's the joy of curating a collection. I would think that counts as enjoyment, can it not?
    This is one of the ongoing, 'age-old' issues: the disagreement over whether pens were meant to be used. I'm completely with you, Will, as there are many pens I own that have their place of pride without ever being inked or written with. There are distinct reasons they belong here and I delight in their presence. I also never look at a painting or photo hanging on my wall and ask them "what have you done for me today?" They have given me pleasure, just in their presence.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    [QUOTE=Jon Szanto;335792]
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    It's the joy of curating a collection. I would think that counts as enjoyment, can it not?
    This is one of the ongoing, 'age-old' issues: the disagreement over whether pens were meant to be used. I'm completely with you, Will, as there are many pens I own that have their place of pride without ever being inked or written with. There are distinct reasons they belong here and I delight in their presence. I also never look at a painting or photo hanging on my wall and ask them "what have you done for me today?" They have given me pleasure, just in their presence.
    You don't talk to your paintings??

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  10. #46
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    You don't talk to your paintings??
    Certainly. I just never question them!
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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  12. #47
    Senior Member guyy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by linkoiram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    The reality is that those of thus that grew up using fountain pens, and being exposed to them, are dying off. Why would someone born in 2000 care about a PFM? It has no cultural significance for them (other than a potentially offensive name).

    The other factor is that much of the social media engagement around pens is really more about shopping that it is about pens per se. Scrolling through reddit and instagram is mostly like turning on the shopping channel on TV: it's just post after post of a variation on "Ooh, shiny!".

    As for the price of vintage. I completely agree. But scarcity drives price and there aren't all that many PFM IVs left. Sadly.
    As someone born in 1999 I care about a PFM. Although I am sure I'm the exception rather than the rule. Many younger pen enthusiasts seem to be all about collecting special editions of modern pens (at least in my experience) although I don't see the allure in a special color that I know would be difficult to replace in the case the pen disappears.
    I care about the PFM too, as someone born in 1997, but I care about it as a piece of design history, which is probably a fringe reason to care about fountain pens generally. (I actually think its bold clip and cap rings are reminiscent of the modern style we see today with brands like TWSBI etc.)

    It is unfortunate that people my age largely neglect vintage pens, but I don't really blame them. They are easily pigeon-holed: many look thoroughly antiquey, with their trim worn, their celluloid patterns out of style, their usability highly dependent on their restoration, their bladders or diaphragms sensitive to some inks. Those that are full-size in the modern sense command a premium, especially when they are from a top-tier brand. The more affordable ones are often lesser-known, with their exact performance and feel a question mark. As someone who's been trying to pull my own espresso for the last 6 months, I can sympathize with being overwhelmed and letting that breed a single-minded want for a highly-reviewed, brand-new product that other people insist is just the thing you'll need.

    And yet, as people often neglect to mention, the performance of fountain pens hasn't improved since the heyday of the '50s. These are not cars, where whole new technologies render them vastly more reliable, efficient, and comfortable than was imaginable 60 years ago. A good number of vintage pens write in ways that no modern pen can replicate, with a more refined style than is offered today, and with specific ergonomics--in part from materials like celluloid and hard rubber--scarcely available from current production pens. A good number of these are no less reliable in normal use than the average modern one. All this is to say that neglecting vintage pens outright doesn't make logical or sentimental sense--unless, of course, the sentiment is, as Jon would cynically seem to put it, the aspiration of new things primarily for social display. In that context, the fuel is the release cycle, the surface-level dynamism it implies. Vintage pens, ipso facto, cannot replicate the excitement of new releases that might fuel youthful internet community consumerism. I just hope that maybe some of these social consumers grow to truly love using FPs for their own grace, outside of any social medium, wise up, and try out some vintage pens.
    Excellent observations, fpkid. Very enlightening.

    A couple comments: I'm interested enough in design to ride two hours on the subway to see some old neon sign or an old book or something. However, these days, i find the visual design of fountain pens no longer interests me as much as it used to. I now care more about the visual effect pens produce. The tactile sensations they give are also very important to me. I want a nib with some softness or give and i want that to come with some interesting lines. I find that combination more often in vintage pens.

    As for espresso, having someone show you how helps tremendously. After that, like everyone says, it's getting a consistent grind & a consistent amount of coffee in the basket. After a while, it becomes muscle memory. You'll always have to make small adjustments for different beans and weather and as your beans age. You learn to read the signs and adjust before you need to. That part usually comes with experience.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Since I still keep an eye on vintage sales (on eBay for this discussion) I thought I would mention a current interesting example. This follows from me looking for Sheaffer OS Balance pens.

    I had a handful of the above on watch, including two nearly identical marbled green OS pens - one with a buy-it-now (BIN) price, the other starting at a low auction price. First pen was at least excellent+ condition, and the 2nd pen had some issues, including a big chip out of the cap lip that wasn't verbally disclosed but easily seen in one or two of the photos. Pen #1 was the better pen. Here are the listings after sale:

    Pen #1
    Pen #2

    I can't tell if the region played a part in it, but it seems a case where peying attention helps, or something. In any event, the 2nd pen went for quite a bit more than the better pen that was on sale while the auction was going on. When Pen #1 sold, the auction pen was sitting around $80 IIRC, and the bidding went up later. This is all just observational, but the buyer of Pen #2 missed an opportunity. That's all part of the chase, I suppose.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post

    I can't tell if the region played a part in it...
    This could be one of the reasons. When I checked pen #1, ebay told me: "Does not ship to Switzerland".
    Last edited by christof; September 20th, 2021 at 06:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    I have more pens than I can reasonably use. But I enjoy all of them, new and vintage. I like to look at them, to hold them, and to think about them. I imagine them talking among each other in the 24-pen cases I use. I imagine them as social, sentient beings with pen lives of their own.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    I imagine them as social, sentient beings with pen lives of their own.

    That is imagination is not without foundation if one considers that vintage pens in particular had 'careers' and served one or more individuals.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Hi all,

    I think there may be two (at least) streams of vintage buyers. One looks for a fully restored pen of their dreams, and is happy to pay David or another reputable seller a fair price for a mint or near mint perfectly working Enthwurp 62B (the one with the double slitted cap). The other looks for a shabby and neglected old pen needing some TLC.

    It seems to me the confusion comes when these two streams get mixed up. Fully restored or mint pens are, most likely, holding steady or increasing in price. It makes sense. It's a diminishing supply of raw material and current restoration techniques are resulting in well-behaved and fun older pens. The beat up oldsters, in my experience and observation, are absolutely still out there. I buy pens in the wild all the time and often get a decent price (and the fun of getting them up and running again).

    The mix up is when somebody has a beat up old "51" and wants the price of a NOS single jewel Buckskin. Or when a buyer sees an 1990s MB146 for $295 and thinks a 1950s celluloid should-logically-be cheaper.

    My experience of the pandemic suggest that COVID made a difference to all these dynamics. The most commonly recognized pens do seem to have gone up in price, but my old German pens are still very affordable for what you get. And there are still plenty of mis-labelled pens out there too. As ever, pen-hunting is a knowledge game. The person who knows more will always come out ahead.

    Just my 2c.

    Cheers,

    Ralf

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    For the sake of comparison, I took part in a forum for wooden boat owners and builders, where similar questions were posed.

    Building boats from wood is a diminishing craft. Using fiberglass and epoxy resin— from industrial rather than natural sources— is quicker, easier, and yields a greater variety of hull forms. The maintenance is less frequent and costly. Sailing wood boats is likewise, a dwindling pursuit. All international events (Olympics, Americas Cup, Volvo, Vendee Globe, Fastnet) are sailed in advanced fiberglass hulls with carbon fiber spars and synthetic sails. There are classic regattas but they aren't in the forefront of competition.

    The builders and owners of wooden boats are dedicated to their craft (in both senses). But younger people aren't taking it up. For every college student who handwrites letters, keeps a journal, or takes notes with a fountain pen, there are thousands poking their laptops and texting on their mobile phones.

    None of which lessen my love for my light wood skiff, Scandal, fast and tipsy, that sails like a witch. But I don't expect many people to be interested.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    For the sake of comparison, I took part in a forum for wooden boat owners and builders, where similar questions were posed.

    Building boats from wood is a diminishing craft. Using fiberglass and epoxy resin— from industrial rather than natural sources— is quicker, easier, and yields a greater variety of hull forms. The maintenance is less frequent and costly. Sailing wood boats is likewise, a dwindling pursuit. All international events (Olympics, Americas Cup, Volvo, Vendee Globe, Fastnet) are sailed in advanced fiberglass hulls with carbon fiber spars and synthetic sails. There are classic regattas but they aren't in the forefront of competition.

    The builders and owners of wooden boats are dedicated to their craft (in both senses). But younger people aren't taking it up. For every college student who handwrites letters, keeps a journal, or takes notes with a fountain pen, there are thousands poking their laptops and texting on their mobile phones.

    None of which lessen my love for my light wood skiff, Scandal, fast and tipsy, that sails like a witch. But I don't expect many people to be interested.
    It's funny you write this: my own father is a naval architect and marine engineer trained in wooden boat design. I never thought of the connection between me following him around as a kid, being taught about all sorts of small craft and their construction, observing his often long conversations with clients (people who built from his plans) or builders, or going out in whitehalls at Mystic Seaport, and this hobby. But maybe seeing his appreciation for that past inspired me to appreciate the past of another sort.
    Also to the point: I've been working on restoring an Appledore pod ('70s cold-molded plywood, beautiful thing!) for the past several months and have made slow progress. Wooden boats are a more extreme example by far, but your point about maintenance--and the source of motivation to perform it--rings true to me generally. My parents have a neighbor who owns a wood Herreshoff 12 1/2...with all the annual varnishing and repainting he does, he's lucky if he gets her back on the water by Fall!
    Last edited by fountainpenkid; September 23rd, 2021 at 09:21 PM.
    Will
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    For the sake of comparison, I took part in a forum for wooden boat owners and builders, where similar questions were posed.

    Building boats from wood is a diminishing craft. Using fiberglass and epoxy resin— from industrial rather than natural sources— is quicker, easier, and yields a greater variety of hull forms. The maintenance is less frequent and costly. Sailing wood boats is likewise, a dwindling pursuit. All international events (Olympics, Americas Cup, Volvo, Vendee Globe, Fastnet) are sailed in advanced fiberglass hulls with carbon fiber spars and synthetic sails. There are classic regattas but they aren't in the forefront of competition.

    The builders and owners of wooden boats are dedicated to their craft (in both senses). But younger people aren't taking it up. For every college student who handwrites letters, keeps a journal, or takes notes with a fountain pen, there are thousands poking their laptops and texting on their mobile phones.

    None of which lessen my love for my light wood skiff, Scandal, fast and tipsy, that sails like a witch. But I don't expect many people to be interested.
    It's funny you write this: my own father is a naval architect and marine engineer trained in wooden boat design. I never thought of the connection between me following him around as a kid, being taught about all sorts of small craft and their construction, observing his often long conversations with clients (people who built from his plans) or builders, or going out in whitehalls at Mystic Seaport, and this hobby. But maybe seeing his appreciation for that past inspired me to appreciate the past of another sort.
    Also to the point: I've been working on restoring an Appledore pod ('70s cold-molded plywood, beautiful thing!) for the past several months and have made slow progress. Wooden boats are a more extreme example by far, but your point about maintenance--and the source of motivation to perform it--rings true to me generally. My parents have a neighbor who owns a wood Herreshoff 12 1/2...with all the annual varnishing and repainting he does, he's lucky if he gets her back on the water by Fall!
    Interestingly, my youngest son who lives in coastal Southern California frequently gets internet adverts for wooden boats from two different companies that build boats. One firm makes sailing dinghies, and the other rowing skiffs.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Not familiar with the Appledore pod. I've seen photos of Appledore schooners.

    My skiff is a modest Bolger Gypsy, which was parked in a driveway for years, with plywood delaminating and paint flaking. I got her cheap and did a rebuild, adding side decks and coamings, rope loop steering, and reworking the leg-of-mutton rig to a balance lug.



    Quite a swerve. Back to pens. . .

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Back to pens. I'm happy with my present collection, which includes iconic pens by Conklin, Sheaffer, Parker, Pelikan, Waterman, Conway Stewart, Moore, and other makers.

    I usually have two or three pens inked at any given time. For Christmas, I fill a green Sheaffer (Jade Flat-top, Jade Balance, or dark green Touchdown) with green ink and a Duofold Big Red or Pelikan M101N with red ink to do the cards.

    Not having kids, I'm thinking about the fate of my pens. Should I sell them and donate the proceeds to a charity? Leave the collection to an institutution or some as yet unidentified pen aficionado?

    What would you do?

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    What would you do?
    I would try and rehome the ones that meant the most to me: sell, or gift them to a younger generation of vintage afficionados. The rest I would sell/donate.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Back to pens. I'm happy with my present collection, which includes iconic pens by Conklin, Sheaffer, Parker, Pelikan, Waterman, Conway Stewart, Moore, and other makers.

    I usually have two or three pens inked at any given time. For Christmas, I fill a green Sheaffer (Jade Flat-top, Jade Balance, or dark green Touchdown) with green ink and a Duofold Big Red or Pelikan M101N with red ink to do the cards.

    Not having kids, I'm thinking about the fate of my pens. Should I sell them and donate the proceeds to a charity? Leave the collection to an institutution or some as yet unidentified pen aficionado?

    What would you do?
    Are there people who are special to you? Friends, past business associates, not to distant relatives -- nephews or nieces, people who have been there during difficult times, or that you have helped in the past? Have you considered willing some of your pens to them as a remembrance? That is an option to consider.

    I did this with some of my late wife's 'special things' after she passed away. I know how much it meant to those she loved and who loved her to have something of hers as a keepsake.
    Last edited by An old bloke; September 26th, 2021 at 11:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    ...Not having kids, I'm thinking about the fate of my pens. Should I sell them and donate the proceeds to a charity? Leave the collection to an institutution or some as yet unidentified pen aficionado?

    What would you do?
    I deal with this issue all the time. Decades of experience has proven that collectors usually put a higher value on their possessions than current market would bear, with the result being that they hold on to their tangible personal property to the very end. Beneficiaries of their estates most often do not have the same emotional investment and, with few exceptions, opt to expeditiously liquidate for cash. If that breaks your heart, at least now you know what usually happens.

    Therefore, today, decide what is important to you. Ask intended beneficiaries if they have an interest in all or any of the items that make up the collection (as distinguished from an interest in exploiting their perceived value of the collection). Then consult legal counsel to prepare your Will. You may be advised to deliver gifts during your lifetime to beneficiaries who expressed a desire to keep certain items, or to a charitable beneficiary that will accept receipt of tangible personal property.

    Disposition of the balance of the collection depends upon how much effort and time you are willing to devote. You can begin to liquidate the remainder of your collection during your lifetime for market retail prices, or you might feel your time is too valuable to worry about it and be perfectly content to leave it up to others (or your executor) to liquidate your unwanted collection at whatever method they choose (e.g., public auction at wholesale value).

    As for me, my heirs have no interest in fountain pens (except for a few modern Pelikans!?), so four years ago I began to gradually sell off my pen collection. I've paused now that I am down to favorites. I feel no regret, and I did buy a unique modern pen two weeks ago!

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