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Thread: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    While it may seem an obvious aspect, it appears to be overlooked in this discussion: YouTube pen reviewers that are successful are helping people find the pen that they like AND CAN PURCHASE. The focus on currently available pens isn't just a taste thing, but a matter of allowing people to consider elements of a pen before purchasing, very likely online and remotely.

    As such, there is never going to be a level of engagement or excitement for a vintage channel, no matter how compelling and entertaining the player, for the simple reason is that if one were to become interested... then all you would be left with is the long hunt and possible disappointment in a poor pen. A really well done channel would have a lot of value, no doubt, but in a very academic sense, not in any way like the excitement for new pen peeps to consider all their options before getting their next pen.

    Lastly, I've mentioned before, but there is a distinct and noted trend away from old objects in young generations. Many donations are not being accepted at thrift stores any longer because the market for 2nd-hand furniture and other items is not what it once was. This may be cyclical, but for now, the market for older vintage pens, especially pre-60s, is with a decidedly older crowd. At least that is my observation.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; October 6th, 2021 at 06:48 PM.
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  3. #82
    Senior Member guyy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    'SBREBrown has said he does not prefer vintage pens and keeps to modern pens.' Given that he is a youtuber and youtube is more about acquiring sponsorships ($$$) than it is about providing information, one wonders if that is motivated by hopes of acquiring current manufacturer sponsors.

    I doubt any vintage (now defunct) manufacturers are likely to provide sponsorships.
    That's surely a bit cynical--I think while SBREBrown's reviews are often surprisingly incurious for an academic, he is honest.
    The point generally is taken though--as pointed out earlier, there is less media incentive for vintage pen-related content. It does make me wonder if there would be interest in historically informed vintage pen content--such media does get traction on youtube at least, in the general vein of what I'd call "entertaining explainers."
    Is it being cynical or is it simply an honest and realistic question about motivation? I offer that it is the latter.

    I’m with the old bloke.

    SBRE Brown's hands aren’t any bigger than mine. And yet i can handle vintage models just fine. Yes, the senior size Parkers & Sheaffers & OS Wahls suit me best, but i can comfortably use standard sized pens like the Waterman 52, Parker 51, #4 size vintage MBs and Pelikan 400/N/NNs.
    Last edited by guyy; October 6th, 2021 at 08:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    I don't think this has anything whatever to do with hand size. Nor do I think it has anything whatever to do with venality. I'm with Jon Szanto, above. Many people, whatever sizes of pens they like and use and review, just are not very interested in old pens.

    Let us entertain the idea that Dr. Brown lives in a mental world in which people are interested in Kaweco pens of today, and very much not in Kaweco pens of the original company. I read many reviews on UK Web sites of small pens currently on the market. It isn't that the reviewers are against writing with a small pen. They seem to be delighted with various small pens.

    But they are not interested in small Japanese pens of the 1950s. I'm 85 years old and I'm not, either. My own favorite pen is the Parker 51 Aero, and to a disproportionate extent I write with pens of the 1950s and 1960s, but I have not the slightest expectation that video reviewers are going to discuss e.g. the MonteRosa 042. Nor do I have the slightest disappointment that they don't.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    The only reason a user of any age is not interested in an Esterbrook or Parker vintage is because they have not used one for a daily use. Of course if you're concerned about ink on your finger than using, YMMV.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    The only reason a user of any age is not interested in an Esterbrook or Parker vintage is because they have not used one for a daily use. Of course if you're concerned about ink on your finger than using, YMMV.
    come on, Chuck. That's not true.

    I don't much like my Esterbrook (I've owned for 6 years now), and this is why I don't use it much and am not interested in more of them. I also have grown less enamored with my Vacumatic, and I likely will sell it soon. Disinterest in vintage can come from several factors, including that not all of the pens actually write well or suit us individually.

    Kind of like with modern pens, too.

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    Senior Member guyy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Tarshis View Post
    I don't think this has anything whatever to do with hand size. Nor do I think it has anything whatever to do with venality. I'm with Jon Szanto, above. Many people, whatever sizes of pens they like and use and review, just are not very interested in old pens.
    I read both Jon's and old bloke's comments as saying that it comes down to the marginal status of vintage pens as commodities. Youtube being centered around the sale of commodities -- Google is an advertising company first and foremost -- vintage pens are not going to be big on youtube.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by guyy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Tarshis View Post
    I don't think this has anything whatever to do with hand size. Nor do I think it has anything whatever to do with venality. I'm with Jon Szanto, above. Many people, whatever sizes of pens they like and use and review, just are not very interested in old pens.
    I read both Jon's and old bloke's comments as saying that it comes down to the marginal status of vintage pens as commodities. Youtube being centered around the sale of commodities -- Google is an advertising company first and foremost -- vintage pens are not going to be big on youtube.
    Thank you. My point exactly.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Are pens from the 1960s to the 1980s considered to be vintage today? Time creeps on, and I feel as if I were in some time warp. Pens drom the sixties to the eighties are most of what I use.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    I'd definitely count the 60's as vintage, mostly because that was the last decade before fountain pens were completely eclipsed by ball points.
    Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    I'd definitely count the 60's as vintage, mostly because that was the last decade before fountain pens were completely eclipsed by ball points.
    Agreed!

    To me, "vintage" pens represents a fixed time period when fountain pens were one of (if not "the") mainstream writing instrument. They have a lot of characteristics that we don't see in the pens made in latter decades until today.

    Today, fountain pens are made to meet a totally different demands, and for better or worse, these also deserve a different classification than the vintage ones.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    I'd definitely count the 60's as vintage, mostly because that was the last decade before fountain pens were completely eclipsed by ball points.
    Agreed!

    To me, "vintage" pens represents a fixed time period when fountain pens were one of (if not "the") mainstream writing instrument. They have a lot of characteristics that we don't see in the pens made in latter decades until today.

    Today, fountain pens are made to meet a totally different demands, and for better or worse, these also deserve a different classification than the vintage ones.
    "totally different demands?" Certainly for desk jewelry like oversize, 50+ gram metal LEs, but I think most of the market shares a good amount in common with that 50+ years ago--people want pens to use frequently, for long or short writing. Pocket carry is no longer fashionable or a common aim (hence the current success of unpocketable oversize pens), but the goal of writing utility hasn't changed that much. Aesthetically, of course, you're right, it's totally different. Vintage pens were like cars still are: styled to represent the latest trends. Modern pens are all over the map, representing many different aesthetic eras, sometimes in a single pen.
    Will
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    Senior Member Cyril's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    I'd definitely count the 60's as vintage, mostly because that was the last decade before fountain pens were completely eclipsed by ball points.
    Agreed!

    To me, "vintage" pens represents a fixed time period when fountain pens were one of (if not "the") mainstream writing instrument. They have a lot of characteristics that we don't see in the pens made in latter decades until today.

    Today, fountain pens are made to meet a totally different demands, and for better or worse, these also deserve a different classification than the vintage ones.
    I agree and my same point is as what PENWASH INDICATE HERE.

    Whatever the debate on pen size or the period of the pen era has upgraded or degraded the the present pens manufacturing,
    it is surely missing the distinctive characteristic quality of writing of vintage pens.
    This can be a slight experience of difference to somebody who has not laid a hand on vintage pen.
    But a big take to someone who is very serious in writing and who has only had contemporary pens writing experience.
    This is my own path how I got into vintage pens and I hardly buy any pens that is not vintage.

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    Senior Member penwash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlifter View Post
    I'd definitely count the 60's as vintage, mostly because that was the last decade before fountain pens were completely eclipsed by ball points.
    Agreed!

    To me, "vintage" pens represents a fixed time period when fountain pens were one of (if not "the") mainstream writing instrument. They have a lot of characteristics that we don't see in the pens made in latter decades until today.

    Today, fountain pens are made to meet a totally different demands, and for better or worse, these also deserve a different classification than the vintage ones.
    "totally different demands?" Certainly for desk jewelry like oversize, 50+ gram metal LEs, but I think most of the market shares a good amount in common with that 50+ years ago--people want pens to use frequently, for long or short writing. Pocket carry is no longer fashionable or a common aim (hence the current success of unpocketable oversize pens), but the goal of writing utility hasn't changed that much. Aesthetically, of course, you're right, it's totally different. Vintage pens were like cars still are: styled to represent the latest trends. Modern pens are all over the map, representing many different aesthetic eras, sometimes in a single pen.
    When I say demands, I was mainly referring to the numbers.

    Pen companies today don't have to produce millions of fountain pens because the demands are not there anymore.

    This has both good and bad outcome. The good outcome is that this opens up market for smaller boutique-style manufacturers to thrive and innovate.

    What can be seen as one downside, is that FP producers no longer have the urgency and the need to stay competitive like their predecessors in the past.

    Example: Can you imagine if Sheaffer sell their pens at a very high price, and don't deliver to their customers up to months?
    How soon do you think they will just vanish in the cloud of competitions back then?

    Today, this is tolerated and accepted, for certain manufacturers (and I'm not referring only to the Nakaya or Hakase of the world).

    Again, this is just musings. Take it as far as it can go in your chosen perspective.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Nice thread 👍🏻.
    My 2c worth leans quite heavily towards the aspect that is NIBS.

    Putting aside for a second the attraction to the history of the pen, be it from whatever perspective, that being subjective,
    if one were to see a page written with a smooth firm nibbed pen, be it round tipped or stub / italic from virtually any era , from as early as you like right up to now, there would be pretty much zero difference.
    The necessity for using that type of nib has changed with the times, but it's intrinsic characteristic has not.

    Taking however the flexible nib , again including stubs and italics , it would seem to me that emulating the script produced by the dip pens previous to the development of the fountain type pen, for a considerable time, gold nibs were available and used to produce a similar script which , called many names such as Spencerian , roundhand etc, lasted well up into the 60s.
    From then on whilst still making soft nibs, it would seem the nib started to follow the trend set by the ballpoint, and moved in the direction that dominates to this day. Which is the round tipped firm nib , or to be inclusive, firm nibs in general, to allow for obliques, stubs etc

    I myself am a passionate user of cursive roundhand style , amongst others, and have found almost nothing produced after the late 40s ( of course there are the odd exception) compares to the gold superflex nibs from the start of the 20Th Century
    through to the mid to late 40s.
    Yes there have been one or two attempts , some slightly more successful than others, but generally speaking if one leans in the direction of 'flexwriting' it's just no contest!

    The interest in history is fascinating as well, Owning and using a pen which sat on some person's desk a hundred years ago as an everyday necessity, which still functions perfectly is definitely a thrill for me.
    Sure there are huge numbers of old pens that never made it this far...but one wonders how many of today's offerings will still be around and working in the distant future. I'm also sure many will !

    Like I said, my 2c worth. ( might be 10c worth !)
    Last edited by Robalone; December 24th, 2021 at 11:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    The commonly agreed definition for antique is 100 years. So pre-1920 pens are antiques.

    Vintage is a slipperier term. Its origin, in the wine trade, indicates that along with the brand, the year of issue can partially determine the quality and value. But for fountain pens, not being subject to such variation, it indicates a high degree of design and craftsmanship, often (although not necessarily) based on the selling price.

    Is a dime store Arnold or Cavalier a vintage pen? Or simply an old one?

    I've restored quite a few low-price pens and enjoy writing with them. But I wouldn't expect a selling price anywhere near that of a vintage Parker, Sheaffer, Conway Stewart, Conklin, or Wahl Eversharp.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Chip. Yep that. And, I think one has to acknowledge 'neologisms' whether one likes it or not .

    Seems these days anything from the 90s backwards is being touted as 'vintage', so not only is the term being applied incorrectly (!) but it has been co-opted and has slipped, to some extent unnoticed into common parlance.
    It behooves those that think a little deeper to understand what is happening and apply a bit of oversight to sieve out the meanings.

    Using 'vintage' to refer to a pen , these days , has taken on a value, which as you say, when applied to some of the cheaper pens that have always been made , can gloss over what in some cases is a pretty ordinary pen / item.

    Perhaps it's just a better idea to simply designate year of manufacture, condition etc , instead of using 'vintage' as a tactic to cash in as it were , to a fashion.

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    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Robalone View Post
    Perhaps it's just a better idea to simply designate year of manufacture, condition etc , instead of using 'vintage' as a tactic to cash in as it were , to a fashion.
    Still, vintage is a common term in internet searches.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    So, vintage is being used to describe Twentieth Century items? Most pens from the 1980s on have about the same technology as current. Piston filler or piston converter. Manufacturers do need to make the buyers feel the need to buy somehow. How many pen users and collectors want older pens as opposed to new? Planned obsolescence keeps consumerism going on. Who wants an old Parker 51 when you can spend more on a new one. I hope the new ones work better than the Sonnet. And China doesn't counterfeit them. Probably already happening.
    Last edited by pajaro; December 28th, 2021 at 10:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by pajaro View Post
    So, vintage is being used to describe Twentieth Century items? Most pens from the 1980s on have about the same technology as current. Piston filler or piston converter. Manufacturers do need to make the buyers feel the need to buy somehow. How many pen users and collectors want older pens as opposed to new? Planned obsolescence keeps consumerism going on. Who wants an old Parker 51 when you can spend more on a new one. I hope the new ones work better than the Sonnet. And China doesn't counterfeit them. Probably already happening.
    I am the OP for this thread, but I'm not here to prescribe what "vintage" means.

    Having said that, this is what "vintage" means to me when it's applied to fountain pens:

    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post338797

    And your point above, is exactly why I don't see the term "vintage" as a rolling time-window where in the future, pens made in 2021 became "vintage". To me, they are not.

    Let the people 100 years from now come up with another term to describe them.
    - Will
    Unique and restored vintage pens: Redeem Pens

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    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Pens today - An Observation

    Quote Originally Posted by penwash View Post
    And your point above, is exactly why I don't see the term "vintage" as a rolling time-window where in the future, pens made in 2021 became "vintage". To me, they are not. Let the people 100 years from now come up with another term to describe them.
    Brut?

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