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Thread: Kabul and Responsibility

  1. #21
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    I do appreciate EOC's last comments, but it might be casting pearls before swine in some incidences. Yes, we could ask for clarity, but the responsibilty does not lie with the reader.
    Curious how a guy who is so interested in Biblical interpretation now asserts that responsibility does not lie with the reader. Who is doing the interpreting? The writer?

    "Casting pearls before swine" is an interesting attempt to reconstruct "monkey flinging shit".
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    The consequence can be anything. One consequence could be an overhaul of the system used for strategic analysis. Systems like DIME and PMESI have been shown to be vulnerable to incorrect assessment in the face of non-regular opponents.
    How many times have you participated in brigade, division, corps or even theater army planning; using DIME or PMESI (and it's PMESI-PT)? Those are U.S. Military terms/methods (predominately Army). Seven questions is more likely the method you used, as a Brit/Aus/NZ member. I think you just googled that, but hey, I could be wrong.

    "Strategic analysis" is national level planning. The CENTCOM Commander (or ARCENT Commander, or CSTC-A...) would never have their staff conduct "strategic" anything. That's the operational level, not strategic. Strategic planning is done at the cabinet level (SECDEF staff coordinate with SECSTATE staff). All plans are approved by the Commander (or Commander in Chief, in this case). The President is where the totality of Constitutional executive authority is vested. One person. All subordinate executive personnel and agencies derive their authority from the office of the President. He is delegating some of his authority.

    You can delegate authority, but not responsibility. If his staff bubbas (that he picked) gave him bad info, it's still his responsibility.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I do appreciate EOC's last comments, but it might be casting pearls before swine in some incidences. Yes, we could ask for clarity, but the responsibilty does not lie with the reader.
    Curious how a guy who is so interested in Biblical interpretation now asserts that responsibility does not lie with the reader. Who is doing the interpreting? The writer?

    "Casting pearls before swine" is an interesting attempt to reconstruct "monkey flinging shit".
    You have me confused with your pal Kazoo. He is the one who introduced Biblical interpretation as a way to scorn Biden.

    Regarding EOC's comments, what he is saying, I think, is the writer bears the responsibilty of clarity. It is not the readers responsibilty to be a mind reader.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I do appreciate EOC's last comments, but it might be casting pearls before swine in some incidences. Yes, we could ask for clarity, but the responsibilty does not lie with the reader.
    Curious how a guy who is so interested in Biblical interpretation now asserts that responsibility does not lie with the reader. Who is doing the interpreting? The writer?

    "Casting pearls before swine" is an interesting attempt to reconstruct "monkey flinging shit".
    You have me confused with your pal Kazoo. He is the one who introduced Biblical interpretation as a way to scorn Biden.

    Regarding EOC's comments, what he is saying, I think, is the writer bears the responsibilty of clarity. It is not the readers responsibilty to be a mind reader.

    I'm reminded of that old curmudgeon Thomas Paine. "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

    I italicized the word "interpretation" (if you go back and look at the post you quoted), in hopes you would notice and recognize there is some emphasis connoted in that. That's common technique. Another is ALL CAPITALS, but that's usually commonly considered "shouting" - which is a different way of conveying emphasis.

    Since you the reader apparently bear no responsibility for adhering to common convention everybody else does, you focused on the word "Biblical" - missing the point completely. Honestly I still am unsure if this is intentional or if you are really this obtuse. It's amazing to watch at any rate.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    You may think that you haven't implied this, but in the way I receive your words the implication is there.

    Scapegoat was incorrectly used by me, and the meaning of my statement was thus confused. It's easy to do. We all make statements that can be interpreted other than what we intended.
    You have identified the issue: the way you received my message, not the content of the actual message.

    The difference between these two examples is that your mind created something that, objectively, was not in the text. We agreed earlier that "vengeance" was not used. I cannot control, or be held responsible, for what you have created in your mind from something that didn't exist.

    You used the word "scapecoat." It's there for us to see. I need to infer nothing from your word, your text. Now you say you made a mistake. Mistaken or not, the actual words on the screen said I was trying to make a scapegoat.

    You created an implication from a word that wasn't there. I correctly understood the meaning of the word you used. It may be more accurate to say you assumed I was seeking vengeance rather than my words implied that.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    You know what Kaz, if you cannot take critical analysis, it’s you that has the problem and not EOC.

    You’ve certainly misinterpreted others posts that was obviously not the intent. It’s why I questioned your reading ability.

    This all makes me think you’re really only here to troll .

    Good day. 😂

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    You know what Kaz, if you cannot take critical analysis, it’s you that has the problem and not EOC.

    You’ve certainly misinterpreted others posts that was obviously not the intent. It’s why I questioned your reading ability.

    This all makes me think you’re really only here to troll .

    Good day. 😂
    Critical, sure. Mistaken, no.
    As you've figured out by now in my "misinterpretations" there's a difference between what you think you said and what appears in print. Words matter.

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post

    "...uncomfortable feeling that much of your argument is still implying a search for a scapegoat."
    Your discomfort is the result of your "feeling" being a search for an absent implication. Perhaps projection on your part.
    A scapegoat bears the sins of others placed upon it. Nowhere have I suggested that an innocent take the blame for another's failure. It is enough that a person be responsible for their own actions.
    You may think that you haven't implied this, but in the way I receive your words the implication is there. How often has a performer complained about not being understood by their audience, when often the problem lies in the ambiguity of the performance? This is what happened in this thread.

    Scapegoat was incorrectly used by me, and the meaning of my statement was thus confused. It's easy to do. We all make statements that can be interpreted other than what we intended. Nobody is immune to this.....
    A better word might be "punishment," or "consequence" (more neutral), or even "repercussions."

  10. #29
    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The consequence can be anything. One consequence could be an overhaul of the system used for strategic analysis. Systems like DIME and PMESI have been shown to be vulnerable to incorrect assessment in the face of non-regular opponents.
    How many times have you participated in brigade, division, corps or even theater army planning; using DIME or PMESI (and it's PMESI-PT)? Those are U.S. Military terms/methods (predominately Army). Seven questions is more likely the method you used, as a Brit/Aus/NZ member. I think you just googled that, but hey, I could be wrong.
    You are correct, I am speaking as a UK member. However, I was trying to keep it in a US context rather that confusing the (mostly) US audience with terminology from another country. Your systems are not well-known by me, although I did hugely enjoy reading about how Paul Van Riper ran rings around your combined war machine by not playing according to the assumed rules of engagement.


    @kazoolaw
    The difference between these two examples is that your mind created something that, objectively, was not in the text. We agreed earlier that "vengeance" was not used. I cannot control, or be held responsible, for what you have created in your mind from something that didn't exist.
    I can only repeat what I said earlier: How often has a performer complained about not being understood by their audience, when often the problem lies in the ambiguity of the performance?

    In this specific instance I found your statement on consequences to be ambiguous in its intent. However, part of what led to my interpretation lies in the words used, and part lies in the picture I have of the writer based on reading many of their previous statements - both here and in other threads. It is entirely possible that I would not have made the assumption of vengeance-seeking if I had read the statement cold and not known who the writer was.

    There is a common misunderstanding that occurs when someone writes something in that they expect the reader to understand not only the objective meaning of the words but also the intent of the words in the context they are offered.

    However, all of this is distraction from what is presumably the intent of this thread - which is what?
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; August 31st, 2021 at 03:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    You know what Kaz, if you cannot take critical analysis, it’s you that has the problem and not EOC.

    You’ve certainly misinterpreted others posts that was obviously not the intent. It’s why I questioned your reading ability.

    This all makes me think you’re really only here to troll .

    Good day. 😂
    Critical, sure. Mistaken, no.
    As you've figured out by now in my "misinterpretations" there's a difference between what you think you said and what appears in print. Words matter.
    Go and do likewise, Kaz.

    Others have spoken. It might be time to alter your writing .

  12. #31
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    At some point , kazoo, you’re going to have to own your words and stop accusing.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/repub...b05f53eda074ba

    Not sure if this is germane to the thread, but thought I'd put here for consideration.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/repub...b05f53eda074ba

    Not sure if this is germane to the thread, but thought I'd put here for consideration.
    Quite germane, thanks. Like nearly all of our more recent military entanglements post 2001, when things are going well, dissent is quelled, particularly from the party in power, but when the shit hits the fan, the party out of power pounces on it to make political hay, even if they once supported basically the same policy. Politics has very little sustained memory, and there is NO political advantage to sharing culpability in a long-term mess like Afghanistan. Both parties pull this bullshit game of blame and vote party lines (except for the cases of attack against US soil). The 2022 midterms are looking large on the radar of both parties.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  16. #34
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/repub...b05f53eda074ba

    Not sure if this is germane to the thread, but thought I'd put here for consideration.
    Germane, I would say. The title of the piece is interesting to me.

    GOP Rips Biden For Working With Taliban After Supporting Trump Doing It

    Is it pointing out hypocrisy, or is it “whataboutism”? I suppose the answer varies based on one’s political bias.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/repub...b05f53eda074ba

    Not sure if this is germane to the thread, but thought I'd put here for consideration.
    Germane, I would say. The title of the piece is interesting to me.

    GOP Rips Biden For Working With Taliban After Supporting Trump Doing It

    Is it pointing out hypocrisy, or is it “whataboutism”? I suppose the answer varies based on one’s political bias.
    Germane to withdrawal generally, but not the specifics of this withdrawal. Biden and Trump were quoted as Saying they were ending the war. This 20 year campaign is ended: we withdrew from the field and conceded defeat. Only if Afghanistan based/supported terrorism ends is the war over. Too soon to tell, but I doubt it.

    Question I've not seen addressed: I understand the US Embassy in Kabulis one of the biggest and best. What's being or been done with that facility and all its high tech contents?

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    However, all of this is distraction from what is presumably the intent of this thread - which is what?
    Drone Hellfire missile strike in Kabul – August 29, 2021

    KABUL, Afghanistan — It was the last known missile fired by the United States in its 20-year war in Afghanistan, and the military called it a “righteous strike” — a drone attack after hours of surveillance Aug. 29 against a vehicle that U.S. officials thought contained an Islamic State bomb and posed an imminent threat to troops at Kabul’s airport.
    -NYT

    Army Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Wednesday that it's “possible” the United States will seek to coordinate with the Taliban on counterterrorism strikes in Afghanistan against Islamic State militants or others….At a Pentagon news conference with Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, Milley called the Taliban “ruthless” adding, “Whether or not they change remains to be seen.”
    -nbcnewyork Sept 1, 2021

    “At the time…we had very good intelligence that ISIS-K was preparing a specific type vehicle at a specific type location. We monitored that through various means and all of the engagement criteria were being met. We went through the same level of rigor that we’ve done for years and we took a strike,”
    -Gen. Milley briefing

    Subsequently, The New York Times reported that after Defense Department officials bragged that “two high profile” ISIS-K militants who supposedly served as “planners and facilitators” of the Aug. 26 suicide bombing….
    -NYT

    WASHINGTON – The Pentagon admitted Friday that a U.S. drone strike in Kabul, Afghanistan last month killed as many as 10 civilians including up to seven children.
    “As the combatant commander, I am fully responsible for this strike and its tragic outcome,” U.S. Marine Corps Gen. Kenneth McKenzie, commander of U.S. Central Command, told reporters.
    -cnbc, September 17, 2021

    {italics added}

    ...how should each person/entity responsible be made accountable for their roles?
    -Post 1 in this topic.

    A better word might be "punishment," or "consequence" (more neutral), or even "repercussions."
    -Post 28, above.

    Should anyone be punished, incur consequences, or receive repercussions for the actions listed above?*
    ___________________________________
    *Though responses are obviously free to range beyond these three choices my intent in writing this post does not.





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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    There is a op-Ed this morning in the times discussing the failure of academic expertise that recommends proven track records rather than credentials.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Still no call for punishment, consequences, or repercussions?
    Anybody out there?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...hearing-514491
    Hardly a right wing source.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    More likely they did before they didn’t.

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    Default Re: Kabul and Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    More likely they did before they didn’t.
    Then again:
    "Sen Cotton: It’s a simple question. Secretary Austin, he said no senior military leader advised him to lead a small troop presence behind. Is that true or not? Did this officer and General Miller’s recommendations get to the president?

    Sec Austin: Personally, their input was was received by the president and considered by the president for sure in terms of what they specifically recommended. Senator, they just as they just said, they’re not going to provide what they recommended in confidence."


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