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Thread: Dr. Robert Malone

  1. #41
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    That isn't how we can have nice things.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    Okay

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    It's time for me to point out, yet again, that the mRNA technology used to make the vaccine and get it into cells has been around for a long time. Way back around 1999, I was making mRNA transcripts very similar to the ones in the vaccines with kits then sold by Ambion (now part of GIBCO, which was then merged into the huge Thermo Fisher complex, IIRC). Once I had my mRNA, I would get it into cells using a product then made by GIBCO called Lipofectamine. That is essentially the same stuff used in the vaccines. Of course, it being research at a university, I don't doubt I got both mRNA and Lipofectamine on exposed skin, perhaps even broken skin. Any ill effects? Nope. I didn't expect there would be. What is new to this technology are some refinements to make the mRNA transcripts more stable and less prone to degradation before they reach their target cells, and the use of these technologies to produce a vaccine. That's all. I know those aren't inconsiderable, because all of this takes time, effort, and a lot of failed reactions. But these are things I am entirely comfortable with. I've held them in my hands.

  4. #44
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    The National Academy of Sciences.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/86/16/6077

    Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection
    R W Malone, P L Felgner, and I M Verma

    We have developed an efficient and reproducible method for RNA transfection, using a synthetic cationic lipid, N-[1-(2,3-dioleyloxy)propyl]-N,N,N-trimethylammonium chloride (DOTMA), incorporated into a liposome (lipofectin). Transfection of 10 ng to 5 micrograms of Photinus pyralis luciferase mRNA synthesized in vitro into NIH 3T3 mouse cells yields a linear response of luciferase activity. The procedure can be used to efficiently transfect RNA into human, rat, mouse, Xenopus, and Drosophila cells. Using the RNA/lipofectin transfection procedure, we have analyzed the role of capping and beta-globin 5' and 3' untranslated sequences on the translation efficiency of luciferase RNA synthesized in vitro. Following transfection of NIH 3T3 cells, capped mRNAs with beta-globin untranslated sequences produced at least 1000-fold more luciferase protein than mRNAs lacking these elements.


    Robert Malone, the lead in conjunction with Felgner and Verma; developed RNA transfection using lipids. That's what all the COVID mRNA vaccines use. The other technique is using a modified adenovirus.

    There it is, but the unsupported statements and accusations will continue. Worse, it is just a way to ignore one more actual scientist because they do not follow the approved narrative. I'm still waiting for the variation of "x lied, people died"; and who will be first to use it in this COVID context.

    --edit--

    p.s.: Look at the date of the article. It appears to predate your '99 anecdote by about 10 years.
    Last edited by dneal; September 11th, 2021 at 04:25 AM.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    It is Dr. Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman who are more commonly credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.

    According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "mRNA vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies." mRNA vaccines are a new sort of vaccine; the COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna were the first.

    On his personal website, Twitter, and LinkedIn, Dr. Robert Malone has been promoting himself as the inventor of mRNA vaccines. This is misleading. In 1989, Malone published a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While this paper is an example of his important contribution to the then-emerging field, it does not make him the inventor of mRNA vaccines.

    According to Stat News, "for decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA or mRNA." According to the New York Times, "For her entire career, Dr. Kariko has focused on messenger RNA, or mRNA — the genetic script that carries DNA instructions to each cell’s protein-making machinery. She was convinced mRNA could be used to instruct cells to make their own medicines, including vaccines."

    While Malone's research may have been important, scientific breakthroughs don't always boast a sole "inventor." Instead, they come about through the work of many.

    UPDATE: Malone reached out to Logically, stating that he did not invent the mRNA vaccines, but instead the "vaccine technology platform." He also presented us with copies of nine patents – none of which showed that he invented the mRNA vaccines. The judgment for the claim has not changed.
    Source: https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd


    Make of it what you will. Right now people need to be focused on containing and eliminating this virus, not scientific dick swinging contests. Just my opinion, natch.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Empty_of_Clouds For This Useful Post:

    TFarnon (September 12th, 2021)

  7. #46
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    Sorry. I do not accept "fact-checks" as superior evidence to an actual medical article on the National Academy of Sciences website.

    Look at the bio of the writer of your "fact-check"

    Alice Franklin

    Alice is a writer based in Oxford who recently graduated from the MA Creative Writing Prose at UEA. She has a penchant for learning about languages, loves grammar, and is a fan of explaining complex things in a simple way.



    Alice does not appear to be a doctor nor a scientist. Creative Writing, indeed.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    And you don't accept systematic reviews as superior evidence to a single medical article. Gotcha.

  9. #48
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    You didn't post a systemic review. You posted a creative writer's opinion. Gotcha.

    Is this the discussion you desire? This isn't how we have nice things.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    I was referring to a similar situation in another thread that related to your point here about acceptable levels of evidence. An intelligent person keeping up with the conversations here would remember this, and yet you decided to be obtuse about it anyway.

    No, this isn't how we have nice things, and so far the key factor has been tenor of your posts. When you stay on topic, and offer factual and well-considered argument it is great, but there is always with you this potential to devolve to personal attacks or sheer head in the sand dismissiveness. Case in point - do you think you understand more about the science of mRNA than TFarnon? Are you trained formally to a high degree in biomedical science? If you are then just say so, but don't dismiss those who are so educated if you are not. It's tiresome, man. There could be some really chewy discussions here except for you derailing them.


    Edit: there are a couple of backhanded compliments in there if you care to look. What is exasperating is that these discussions could be really cool!
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; September 11th, 2021 at 05:40 AM.

  11. #50
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    Trolls can often be run off through escalation. It worked for most, but a few of you are dedicated and appear to delight in it. I changed tack and offered an olive branch, because I would indeed rather have meaningful conversation. You seem insistent in "proving" that it's a ruse, by continuing the same escalatory behavior. You're proving something, just not what you think. Anyway... That's not how we have nice things.

    You might reflect on your part in derailing conversation. Maybe a first step to having nice things?

    --edit--

    You might revisit This Thread for an example of reasonable discussion (who a few attempted to disrupt). When did contentiousness begin in that thread? Who instigated? Who is conspicuously absent? Perhaps there is a correlation.
    Last edited by dneal; September 11th, 2021 at 06:05 AM.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    I'm not a troll, I really don't enjoy having 'discussions' like this and tend to consider myself conflict averse at heart, but I will not stand by and let another member behave in an aggressive manner when nothing calls for it. Nobody should get a free pass, as you guys like to say.

    Watched events unfolding under your 'olive branch'. Did you notice that I did not interrupt it? I was watching because I had hope, slim though it may have been to be honest.

    I have reflected on my part in any derailments, but you are far more culpable than I am in that respect. Cold comfort for me really as I don't want to derail anything.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    See my edit to the post that precedes your last one.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    You made me go and scan a 9-page thread!

    Not sure what your point is as I have one entry in that thread (post #126 out of 178 other posts) where I simply endorse what TFarnon had posted. There was insulting and contentious behaviour in that thread. Some of it was yours, none of it was mine. So, again, what was your point? Because the correlation could be read as 'every thread you participate in degenerates into unpleasantness'. You certainly don't require any help from me.

  15. #54
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    My point? Some of us are able to converse like adults. Some aren't. If I am such an ass, why am I so selective in who I'm an ass to in that thread? Do you see a correlation? Do you note that you did not participate? Do you think there's a correlation with that?

    Seriously, some self-reflection on your part is in order. I own my part in it. You deny yours.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    Funny. There are tons of threads where I've been a model citizen. Some where you weren't present, perhaps there's a correlation there too! We can likely both pick threads that advance or hinder our respective arguments about our behaviour. There is, in my opinion, no mileage to be had there.

    Some of us are able to converse like adults.
    You probably don't think this is insulting, but when I read it I note that you are putting yourself in that group and excluding me. Think about the tone of it. Now think about how to react if I voice my objection to being so characterised.

  17. #56
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    You posted a "fact-check", from some random internet site, written by an admitted "Creative Writer"; in rebuttal to a scientific paper hosted on PNAS (among other places).

    Do you believe Alice over the very paper that shows Dr. Malone and his two associates did indeed invent/discover/create using lipids as a method of delivering mRNA? If so, how in the world do you think that contributes to an "adult conversation"? I'd like to hear the argument, but your history indicates you will avoid this too. You began by posting an Atlantic article, which is the same problem - it is a substitute for an argument.

    Did you notice that Alice creates a straw man with the assertion that Dr. Malone "invented mRNA vaccines", and then attacks that? If you didn't, that might explain your trouble with identifying them.

    All of that is a rhetorical "shoot the messenger" device, allowing those predisposed to dismiss anything associated with Dr. Malone. It's not different than using a "horse laugh" to dismiss ivermectin. No data, no facts; just rhetoric. Conversation is not possible like this. Internet arguments are. You're free to choose.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    To use language with which you apparently are comfortable, 'you need to up your reading comprehension'.

    For clarity I will extract the part from the disputed (by you) fact check article that specifically addresses the bleating about strawmen: I've emphasised the important bits to give you a clue.

    Malone reached out to Logically, stating that he did not invent the mRNA vaccines, but instead the "vaccine technology platform."

    You're almost welcome.

  19. #58
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    Pedantry, but if it makes you happy? Ok...

    Now can we talk on substance?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    Dismissiveness, but it makes you happy? Ok...

  21. #60
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    Default Re: Dr. Robert Malone

    I'm good. Now let's talk something of more substance?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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