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Thread: Tell us why anyone should agree...

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    Default Tell us why anyone should agree...

    to give anyone unfettered access to our banking information:

    This proposal would create a comprehensive financial account information reporting regime.
    Financial institutions would report data on financial accounts in an information return. The annual return will report gross inflows and outflows with a breakdown for physical cash, transactions with a foreign account, and transfers to and from another account with the same owner. This requirement would apply to all business and personal accounts from financial institutions, including bank, loan, and investment accounts,2 with the exception of accounts below a low de minimis gross flow threshold of $600 or fair market value of $600.
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/fil...ons-FY2022.pdf


    And hire 80,000 new IRS agents.
    And give an additional $80 billion to the IRS


    In these proposals, who are the conspirators? Got $600? Apparently you are.


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    dneal (October 6th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    This is a terrible way to post. Why should anyone have to work figure out what you want to discuss? Lazy!! 😝

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Chuck,

    Let me break down the topic/post for you.

    The title is a question addressed to the reader: it asks the reader why anyone, specifically the reader, would want the IRS gathering all this detailed information about banking transactions.

    The quoted language, with a link to a government document^^, provides the exact language to be considered.

    The next two lines refer to further plans to grow the IRS' budget and numbers.

    The last two lines tells the reader that the government thinks you are a conspirator and the target of enhanced information gathering.

    Which brings you back to the focus of the original question, "Why would you agree to such an invasion of privacy?"

    Not terrible, just a different format.

    So Chuck, do you agree with these 3 proposals?

    ^^Unlike a number of posts in this Forum which contain no references for their assertions. Here, right from the horse's mouth

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    dneal (October 6th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    It was clear to me. If anything, I thought you could have included more text from the section, or let the Chuck-type know where to look in the document since there are no cliff notes.

    The purpose, for example is to collect taxes from the nefarious rich that seemingly hide their billions in multiple bank accounts of just over $600. Need all that reported to the IRS, don'tchaknow. Or maybe it's mom and pop shops that haven't been paying.

    Current Law
    Business income is subject to limited information reporting. Current information reporting of gross receipts exists for only certain types of revenue (from Forms 1099-MISC, 1099-NEC, and 1099-K), and there is no information reporting on total deductible expenses.

    Reasons for Change
    The tax gap for business income (outside of large corporations) from the most recently published Internal Revenue Service (IRS) estimates is $166 billion a year.1 The scale of this revenue loss is driven primarily by the lack of comprehensive information reporting and the resulting difficulty identifying noncompliance outside of an audit. While the net misreporting percentage is only 5 percent for income subject to substantial information reporting, the net misreporting percentage for certain categories of business income exceeds 50 percent.
    Requiring comprehensive information reporting on the inflows and outflows of financial accounts will increase the visibility of gross receipts and deductible expenses to the IRS. Increased visibility of business income will enhance the effectiveness of IRS enforcement measures and encourage voluntary compliance.

    Proposal
    This proposal would create a comprehensive financial account information reporting regime. Financial institutions would report data on financial accounts in an information return. The annual return will report gross inflows and outflows with a breakdown for physical cash, transactions with a foreign account, and transfers to and from another account with the same owner. This requirement would apply to all business and personal accounts from financial institutions, including bank, loan, and investment accounts,2 with the exception of accounts below a low de minimis gross flow threshold of $600 or fair market value of $600.
    It will be interesting to see how this holds up under 4th Amendment grounds (and even 5th...). The scariest part is at the end.

    "The Secretary would be given broad authority to issue regulations necessary to implement this proposal."

    When the executive can write criminal and punitive code under "administrative rules" rolled up in volume after volume of CFR...
    Be your own tenth man.

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    ethernautrix (October 7th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    I donít agree or disagree until I know. I donít have to agree or disagree just because you post. Say what you want to say .

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I donít agree or disagree until I know. I donít have to agree or disagree just because you post. Say what you want to say .
    More projection, more distraction. I donít think you even know what he OP is talking about. You could, with a little reading. You like to read, right?
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    I didn't know about this. Why such a low threshold?
    _____________
    To Miasto

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    That's the key question. Maybe it is small business transactions they're losing $166B on. Seems odd they would want personal accounts reported too, or money moved between accounts. My wife and I have two joint accounts. One is primary and receives deposits, pays bills, etc... The other is a "household" account that gets money transferred from the primary each month. My wife uses it for groceries, dog grooming, "lotions, potions and powders", and whatever else she decides. Each account would be reported to the IRS.

    The more nefarious minded (or dare I say "conspiracy theorists") have come up with all sorts of potential reasons. One is the obvious, they're Hoovering up everyone's financial data just like they do your phone calls and emails. Too much data to sort through, but on hand if they need it for some reason. When Joe was the #2 guy, the IRS was targeting GOP non-profits. Politico Timeline of IRS Scandal.

    One more interesting theory is that this will drive the small local banks out of business because they won't be able to afford compliance, and the mega-banks can expand their business.

    I don't know, and the reason isn't as important to me as the Constitutional problems. Are we secure in our banking information just like we're supposed to be in our houses, papers, etc...? (4th Amendment). In the past this information would be subpoenaed during an audit. The 5th Amendment issues are a little more nebulous. You don't have to incriminate yourself, but the bank is essentially doing that for you (if you're cheating on your taxes like the current President is accused of).

    Hmmm, I wonder if they want to do it so it is easier to review future candidates' financials in depth. Surely the IRS wouldn't leak anything like that, would it?

    The biggest problem is how Congress delegates it's authority to the Executive, allowing branches to "propose rules" and then enact them. That doesn't seem to be a problem, until you see how the EPA, for example, harasses the average citizen. I'm cool with stopping industry from polluting. I'm not so sure a federal bureaucrat should be telling a landowner that they can't dig a livestock pond, for example - and then fining the individual exorbitant amounts - through the "broad authority given" to the director of the EPA.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    kazoolaw (October 7th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I donít agree or disagree until I know. I donít have to agree or disagree just because you post. Say what you want to say .
    That's OK Chuck, get back with us if/when you know.

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    to give anyone unfettered access to our banking information:

    This proposal would create a comprehensive financial account information reporting regime.
    Financial institutions would report data on financial accounts in an information return. The annual return will report gross inflows and outflows with a breakdown for physical cash, transactions with a foreign account, and transfers to and from another account with the same owner. This requirement would apply to all business and personal accounts from financial institutions, including bank, loan, and investment accounts,2 with the exception of accounts below a low de minimis gross flow threshold of $600 or fair market value of $600.
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/fil...ons-FY2022.pdf


    And hire 80,000 new IRS agents.
    And give an additional $80 billion to the IRS


    In these proposals, who are the conspirators? Got $600? Apparently you are.

    Where did you find this snippet of a paragraph? The PDF is about 110 pages long. The table of contents suggests that the, or at least a, big deal is in the proposal to increase the corporate tax from 21% to 28%, and to impose a minimum corporate tax of about 15%. That moves the corporate rate back toward the rate before the Trump corporate tax cut, which was sold as a way to encourage more US corporations to bring their overseas money back to the US. If we tax them at a lower rate, argued Trump's treasury people, they might be kind enough to bring some of their money home from tax havens". They didn't.

    Where is the paragraph, Kaz? Otherwise, I'm noy sure what you are warning about.

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    to give anyone unfettered access to our banking information:

    This proposal would create a comprehensive financial account information reporting regime.
    Financial institutions would report data on financial accounts in an information return. The annual return will report gross inflows and outflows with a breakdown for physical cash, transactions with a foreign account, and transfers to and from another account with the same owner. This requirement would apply to all business and personal accounts from financial institutions, including bank, loan, and investment accounts,2 with the exception of accounts below a low de minimis gross flow threshold of $600 or fair market value of $600.
    https://home.treasury.gov/system/fil...ons-FY2022.pdf


    And hire 80,000 new IRS agents.
    And give an additional $80 billion to the IRS


    In these proposals, who are the conspirators? Got $600? Apparently you are.

    Where did you find this snippet of a paragraph? The PDF is about 110 pages long. The table of contents suggests that the, or at least a, big deal is in the proposal to increase the corporate tax from 21% to 28%, and to impose a minimum corporate tax of about 15%. That moves the corporate rate back toward the rate before the Trump corporate tax cut, which was sold as a way to encourage more US corporations to bring their overseas money back to the US. If we tax them at a lower rate, argued Trump's treasury people, they might be kind enough to bring some of their money home from tax havens". They didn't.

    Where is the paragraph, Kaz? Otherwise, I'm noy sure what you are warning about.

    Page 88, under section titled INTRODUCE COMPREHENSIVE FINANCIAL ACCOUNT REPORTING TO
    IMPROVE TAX COMPLIANCE



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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    OK, here is this:

    Billionaires and Corporations
    By Seth Hanlon and Galen Hendricks September 3, 2021, 9:24 am

    Addressing Tax System Failings That Favor Billionaires and Corporations



    Recent bombshell reports from ProPublica have confirmed what tax experts have long known and what many Americans have long suspected: Many of the countryís wealthiest people pay little or no tax because the U.S. system preferences income from wealth and offers the wealthy and corporations avenues to avoid tax that are not available to working people.1 These fundamental flaws in the tax code existed many years before the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) took things from bad to worse by giving massive new tax cuts to the highest-income Americans and largest corporations.2 These flaws have helped fuel the dramatic increase in inequality, leading to a less dynamic and less just economy.
    https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...-corporations/

    Green Book Proposals That Would Affect High Net Worth Clients:
    Increase Top Marginal Individual Income Tax Rate for High-Income Earners. The top marginal income tax rate would increase from 37% to 39.6% for taxable income in excess of the top bracket threshold. For taxable years beginning January 1, 2022, this would apply to income in excess of $509,300 for married individuals filing jointly and $452,700 for single filers, and thereafter be indexed for inflation.
    https://www.natlawreview.com/article...-tax-landscape

    A collection of business articles about FY 2022 Revenue ("The Green Book"): https://www.jdsupra.com/topics/biden...n-regulations/

    I just searched for "Fiscal Year 2022 Revenue Proposals". There are lots of articles.
    Last edited by welch; October 11th, 2021 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Thoughts about having your $600+ transactions tracked?

    "This requirement would apply to all business and personal accounts from financial institutions, including bank, loan, and investment accounts,2 with the exception of accounts below a low de minimis gross flow threshold of $600 or fair market value of $600." (emphasis added)

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    ... The table of contents suggests that the, or at least a, big deal is in the proposal to increase the corporate tax from 21% to 28%, and to impose a minimum corporate tax of about 15%. That moves the corporate rate back toward the rate before the Trump corporate tax cut....
    yes, please, to both of these increases





    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Thoughts about having your $600+ transactions tracked?

    "This requirement would apply to all business and personal accounts from financial institutions, including bank, loan, and investment accounts,2 with the exception of accounts below a low de minimis gross flow threshold of $600 or fair market value of $600." (emphasis added)
    I don't care that much, Kaz. Remember that I was recruited from GEIS to SWIFT. In 2001, the FBI went through the bank accounts of the Saudi men who sent the airliners into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Working back from these accounts, the FBI demanded that SWIFT turn over the details of the cross-border payments that fed about $500,000 to the terrorists so they could buy flying lessons, apartments, and food. The payments traced back to Al Qaeda bankers in Saudi Arabia, which is how the US knew that Bin Laden and buddies had done the attacks. This was revealed about 2006 in an article in the NY Times, which surprised none of us at SWIFT, by the way. We knew that the attacks had taken a lot of money and that any cross-border payment goes through SWIFT or it barely goes. By then or a year or two later, the Treasury Department had proposed that all "US-domiciled banks", meaning they do business in the US, report any payment entering or leaving the US. There had been a limiting amount, originally set to catch money-launderers, but Treasury found that no matter how small the limit, drug-runners and terrorists transferred a dollar less than that. Treasury threw out the limit, forcing every bank to report every cross-border payment, no matter how small, every day.

    So cross-border is already here.

    Is $600 realistic for payments that begin and end in the US? For payments not suspected of carrying drug or terror business? I doubt it. There are at least 1,000 banks in the US...SWIFT HQ in Belgium always told us that. There are about 250 million adults in the US, and while some might not have bank accounts, many will have more than one account. Corporations will have many more than one account at more than one bank. One corporation I knew received about a thousand balance reports every day from one bank, and that was far from its largest banking relationship.

    My hunch is that the Treasury Department will find it inefficient and impractical to get bank reports on every person's every account transaction, but will use the bank reports to look at corporate cash movements. Maybe also at "high net worth individuals", meaning millionaires and billionaires. They've gotten some attention recently in "The Pandora Papers".

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Seems like this will hurt small business disproportionately

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    My hunch is that the Treasury Department will find it inefficient and impractical to get bank reports on every person's every account transaction, but will use the bank reports to look at corporate cash movements. Maybe also at "high net worth individuals", meaning millionaires and billionaires. They've gotten some attention recently in "The Pandora Papers".
    You're OK with Treasury, and anyone they care to share with, where any transaction you make exceeding $600 goes to? Political contributions? Charitable contributions? Without regard to the increase costs incurred by the banks in reporting which gets passed down to the customers?

    No thanks.

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Were you for or against the Trump Tariffs?

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Chuck, I'd ask if you were for or against staying on task, but suspect you're voting "against."

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    Default Re: Tell us why anyone should agree...

    Can you answer?

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