Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 144

Thread: Restoring Fortitude

  1. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    And I'll just add this: I often don't bother responding to opinion columns in much detail because they are NOT efforts to use evidence and reason effectively. They are not designed for that. They are rhetorical devices, many of which have transparent motives and assumptions and biases and lapses in logic. I should know. I teach classes that study this, and I have done so for 35 years. Opinion pieces rarely effect the reader beyond confirmation bias. They aren't usually designed to do any more than that (sometimes they are, but certainly this column was not).

    I enjoy some opinion pieces, but I am rarely ever persuaded by one. I can admire their sentences and expressions sometimes, but as anything "reasonable," they tend to fall short.

  2. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,728
    Thanks
    341
    Thanked 547 Times in 373 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    And I'll just add this: I often don't bother responding to opinion columns in much detail because they are NOT efforts to use evidence and reason effectively. They are not designed for that. They are rhetorical devices, many of which have transparent motives and assumptions and biases and lapses in logic. I should know. I teach classes that study this, and I have done so for 35 years. Opinion pieces rarely effect the reader beyond confirmation bias. They aren't usually designed to do any more than that (sometimes they are, but certainly this column was not).

    I enjoy some opinion pieces, but I am rarely ever persuaded by one. I can admire their sentences and expressions sometimes, but as anything "reasonable," they tend to fall short.
    As a subscriber to the the NY Times, I choose to read broadly, and never considred it a way to comfirm my own biases. If fact I read most of the opinion pieces from a varying perspectives. Given my sales and marketing background, I find it similar to finding out what the competition is saying or pushing...LOL!!

  3. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,728
    Thanks
    341
    Thanked 547 Times in 373 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    This thread and the posted content has reminded me of Charles Dickens and David Brooks.

    "“They are Man's and they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. This boy is Ignorance and this girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.” Charles Dickens

    When we watch A Christmas Carol, many of us are probably reminded of our past and to the extent we have not been a good neighbor. We have looked down upon the black and brown sister with a brood of children and scorned them as unworthy as week feast on our meals of two meats and a variety of vegtables, relax knowing our homes are well maintained, and we are assured a "golden years" retirement because of a generous pension because of consistant employment, never having to receive unemployment or getting fired of laid off. We might even convince ourselves that our experience is common or worse, an expectation. Shame on us for being so blind.

    I've read Brooks for years. He is a thinker. A bible teacher I knew once remarked "this is teaching, not preaching. You will be expected to think". Here are a couple of abstracts from this weeks op-ed.

    “Humiliation lingers in the mind, the heart, the veins, the arteries forever,” Vivian Gornick writes in Harper’s Magazine. “It allows people to brood for decades on end, often deforming their inner lives.”

    " If you think anybody who tells the truth is guilty of collaboration with cultural elites, then you are seeing the world through resentment-colored glasses."

    "Some days American politics seems to be a futile clash of resentments. But I like to think that flowing through American history there is the recurring tale of people conquering humiliation through creative action. I like to think that scorn has paradoxically been a propulsive force in American life because people find sources of power in places scorn cannot reach."

    I personally know what it feels like to be humiliated. I have been reduced to tears by Dickens. May we all learn to "Keep Christmas Well" for then it will permeate our souls and at the end we will have lived for something real.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/14/o...n-history.html

    And, when we inflict humiliation, this is what occurs. https://harpers.org/archive/2021/10/...ivian-gornick/
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; October 16th, 2021 at 07:50 AM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks
    810
    Thanked 825 Times in 442 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Here, I'll demonstrate how shitty this column is that you started this thread with by looking at just one line.

    You claim that he is "reasonable" and not prone to take one side or the other (bias).

    And yet.

    Here is his third sentence: "A libertine society where anything goes and consequences are ignored is less American-style freedom and more a scene from an antifa-led autonomous zone."

    Do I really have to point out the various fallacies and empty (of reason) rhetorical devices of this sentence to the adults here?

    And that is as soon as the third sentence.

    Christ sake, what bullshit empty rhetoric and biased posturing.

    If, dneal, you are here for anything more than trolling, you have to find something better than this nonsense. Crenshaw may be a fine person. But this column is just hollow posturing and not worth anyone's time here who can read carefully and objectively.

    You can either get pissed off at the criticism and cast aspersions at the critics, or you can try to read better and post something better. Or neither. Whatever. You posted, you asked for "thoughts." You got them. To snipe, then, at the writers of those "thoughts" brings the "whining" charge.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
    What's really amusing is that I manage to troll you without even intending to.
    Be your own tenth man.

  5. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    508
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 211 Times in 167 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Addendum

    @dneal
    @kazoolaw


    Discussions and conversations in this neck of the forum can often be interesting, educational and enjoyable. However, you should know by now that the pushback you get from other members in these threads is because you go out of your way to make the threads unpleasant to engage in. We are not interested in the kind of acrimonious exchanges that you seem to thrive on, though sometimes get drawn into it against our better natures. And quite frankly we would enjoy have our conversations perfectly well in your absence. In fact your absence itself would be welcome. As something of a positivist I want to believe, and think I have seen, that you have some interesting insights to bring to the table. However, if you come to the table with information in one hand and a big ego-stick in the other then you are invited, with complete sincerity and a certain degree of earnestness, to bugger off.




    Read this several times. At first thought' "Well, that's something to consider." Question arose, "Why this comment in this thread?" Then thought, "Seems like a long way to walk to get to the end, but that's EoC's style."
    On consideration of the italicized portion, it becomes obvious that EoC is trying to claim the rhetorical high ground to unleash his thunderbolt: "Bugger off" {more about his choice of words a bit later}

    EoC never identifies the "we" in his post who aren't interested in acrimonious exchanges.

    Is Chip in the group? His posts 2 ("crap" and "the foolish, powerless, resentful, and envious") and 28 (overweight couch potato) are certainly not sweetness and light. Maybe even agressive.

    Is TSherbs a member of the elite? Post 32 ("Sure, fuck face.) hints he is not.

    Is EoC still a part of the "we?" Is Post 38 in jest or a jab? Not clear on its face so let's leave it there for now. Return here after reading to the end and decide then.

    Eoc refers to "our better natures" as the reason the "we" aren't interested in acrimonious exchanges. It seems that "we" slip out of those "better natures" when it suits them to make their own acrimonious comments.

    EoC goes on ( and on and on...) that "...frankly we would enjoy have our conversations perfectly well in your absence." Empty, did you notice whose topic you're in? Looking to the top it says "dneal." dneal starts the topic, "we" enter and would enjoy talking in the topic dneal started if only he and I weren't here. Trying to evict the topic-starter, and I, so EoC can talk in our absence made me wonder "Well, why doesn't EoC start a topic of his own?" (Actually, the next question was why engage if you don't like it?)

    Did you realize that each page of this Forum: Politics, Religion and Society has 20 topics listed. As I write this, on the first 2 pages with 40 topics how many would you venture to guess EoC, Chip, and TSherbs have started? Take a guess, don't peek at the answer. (Yup: zero.) welch has started several. Chuck Naill has stepped out and mustered the courage to start topics of his own and raise a question or state his position. Not so for the "better natures." That's their choice of course. It just makes it clear who is coming in and crapping all over whose topics.

    This can be a rough-and-tumble place. The top of the page states: "Not for the faint of heart. ... You have been warned." Posts can span across the full range of discussion--> debate--> argument--> bare-knuckle brawl. No surprises for any of us.

    Which brings us to EoC's closing exhortation "to bugger off." It's pretty clear what the generic sense of the term is. But EoC chose this term intentionally, and so I wanted to try to figure out why.

    Turns out "bugger" is a verb form of the noun "buggery" which lead to:


    "buggery (n.)
    ... Later (1510s) "unnatural intercourse" with man or beast...."
    https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=bugger

    Yup, EoC's better nature hurling bestiality at us.

    I hope EoC searches, finds, and puts into practice the better nature he obviously needs. No vengeance express or implied

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to kazoolaw For This Useful Post:

    dneal (October 16th, 2021)

  7. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    This thread and the posted content has reminded me of Charles Dickens and David Brooks.

    "“They are Man's and they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. This boy is Ignorance and this girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.” Charles Dickens

    When we watch A Christmas Carol, many of us are probably reminded of our past and to the extent we have not been a good neighbor. We have looked down upon the black and brown sister with a brood of children and scorned them as unworthy as week feast on our meals of two meats and a variety of vegtables, relax knowing our homes are well maintained, and we are assured a "golden years" retirement because of a generous pension because of consistant employment, never having to receive unemployment or getting fired of laid off. We might even convince ourselves that our experience is common or worse, an expectation. Shame on us for being so blind.

    I've read Brooks for years. He is a thinker. A bible teacher I knew once remarked "this is teaching, not preaching. You will be expected to think". Here are a couple of abstracts from this weeks op-ed.

    “Humiliation lingers in the mind, the heart, the veins, the arteries forever,” Vivian Gornick writes in Harper’s Magazine. “It allows people to brood for decades on end, often deforming their inner lives.”

    " If you think anybody who tells the truth is guilty of collaboration with cultural elites, then you are seeing the world through resentment-colored glasses."

    "Some days American politics seems to be a futile clash of resentments. But I like to think that flowing through American history there is the recurring tale of people conquering humiliation through creative action. I like to think that scorn has paradoxically been a propulsive force in American life because people find sources of power in places scorn cannot reach."

    I personally know what it feels like to be humiliated. I have been reduced to tears by Dickens. May we all learn to "Keep Christmas Well" for then it will permeate our souls and at the end we will have lived for something real.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/14/o...n-history.html

    And, when we inflict humiliation, this is what occurs. https://harpers.org/archive/2021/10/...ivian-gornick/
    Thanks, Chuck. Several of these are stimulating ideas. The 2020 election and the COVID pandemic have provided crises around which some deeper reflection has been engendered. Or country needs that. We are not, in my opinion, a very reflective culture historically (nor even religiously), and we should work at it more. We work much harder at selling shit and winning elections than we do at knowing our selves and trying to improve both our individual and national character.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  8. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post



    Is TSherbs a member of the elite? Post 32 ("Sure, fuck face.) hints he is not.

    [/SIZE]
    Hell no, I'm not.

    But dneal has at least twice tried to tarnish me with "NPR" style and "Ivy League" something or other. The general aspersion of agreeing with media elites or talking heads or educated "pedants" has been flying at some of us all over the place here.

    You also called me some string of charges and epithets, all adding up to the general notion that I am an educated snob. Come on, Kazoo. Don't pretend that you don't know what EOC is talking about.

    Besides, dneal has admitted that he starts the threads to yank us on chains. That he begins them does not release him from the responsibility from what he does, say, on his posts #s 4, 5, 6, etc. Same for you.

    How many times are you going to try to narrow the argument with Chuck in order to press him into some sort of corner to score a victory? What are you really after? Are you interested in his thoughts, however they may stray, or are you just into a kind of forensic courtroom debate with victory in mind?






    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  9. #48
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks
    810
    Thanked 825 Times in 442 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    I'm eagerly awaiting the responses to kazoolaw's clear analysis - and particularly the logical and linguistic contortions needed for the "we's" to convince themselves of their unimpeachable moral superiority.

    A couple of memes, if you will, to more clearly demonstrate:

    The smug, condescending satisfaction of successfully "virtue-signaling" other "we's"...

    feministchick.jpg


    ... quickly reduced to triggered, rage-filled, vitriol spouting children.

    triggered-feminist.jpeg
    Be your own tenth man.

  10. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Memes, dneal? Really?

    "Unimpeachable moral superiority"? Nice strawman.

    When I call you an abrasive prick, it's not from "moral superiority" of any kind, not even the "unimpeachable" variety. It's just a casual observation put in vulgar terms. I notice that you never deny it, and no one ever comes to your defense to deny it (not even kazoo). You guys simply say things like "but you're arrogant and angry and make me laugh at you."

    Well, fine. I'm a pedant, and you're a trolling prick. I want a discussion, you want an argument. I prefer the former, in friends, family, and forum correspondents. That's not a "moral" statement at all. It's just what I like and value.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  11. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,728
    Thanks
    341
    Thanked 547 Times in 373 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I'm eagerly awaiting the responses to kazoolaw's clear analysis - and particularly the logical and linguistic contortions needed for the "we's" to convince themselves of their unimpeachable moral superiority.

    A couple of memes, if you will, to more clearly demonstrate:

    The smug, condescending satisfaction of successfully "virtue-signaling" other "we's"...

    feministchick.jpg


    ... quickly reduced to triggered, rage-filled, vitriol spouting children.

    triggered-feminist.jpeg
    Yes, Kaz is clear as a clogged toliet. 😂😂😂😂

  12. #51
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,728
    Thanks
    341
    Thanked 547 Times in 373 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Memes, dneal? Really?

    "Unimpeachable moral superiority"? Nice strawman.

    When I call you an abrasive prick, it's not from "moral superiority" of any kind, not even the "unimpeachable" variety. It's just a casual observation put in vulgar terms. I notice that you never deny it, and no one ever comes to your defense to deny it (not even kazoo). You guys simply say things like "but you're arrogant and angry and make me laugh at you."

    Well, fine. I'm a pedant, and you're a trolling prick. I want a discussion, you want an argument. I prefer the former, in friends, family, and forum correspondents. That's not a "moral" statement at all. It's just what I like and value.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
    So, my former manager long dead used to define insanity as doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

  13. #52
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Is hope insane?

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  14. #53
    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,644
    Thanks
    603
    Thanked 2,081 Times in 1,001 Posts
    Rep Power
    10

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    @kazoolaw, you either are aware that 'bugger off' is a typical English sentiment (part of my local vernacular) or you are not. If you are then your 'analysis' flags you as a dick, if not then consider yourself educated. Those with whom I am happy to have a conversation understood it perfectly well, others did not. You're in the second group with dneal, in case you we having some difficulty with the previous sentence.

  15. #54
    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,644
    Thanks
    603
    Thanked 2,081 Times in 1,001 Posts
    Rep Power
    10

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Is hope insane?

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
    I suppose it depends on how you define hope. Is it an unreasonable or reasonable expectation?

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Empty_of_Clouds For This Useful Post:

    TSherbs (October 16th, 2021)

  17. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    @kazoolaw, you either are aware that 'bugger off' is a typical English sentiment (part of my local vernacular) or you are not. If you are then your 'analysis' flags you as a dick, if not then consider yourself educated. Those with whom I am happy to have a conversation understood it perfectly well, others did not. You're in the second group with dneal, in case you we having some difficulty with the previous sentence.
    I am disappointed that I did not get an etymological analysis of "fuck face." After all, it is a bizarre epithet. I remember learning the etymology of "piss off." I was impressed, and came to appreciate British slang all the more.

    Is that "unimpeachably morally superior"? Ha. Hardly!

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

  18. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    1,147
    Thanked 1,191 Times in 701 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    There's a good story of when I learned, in second grade, the power of "fuck" as an expressive. We had just moved into a rather posh neighborhood, and I screamed the word loud enough for neighbors to hear. (That's a summary, not the 'story')

    Not much has changed, except that I live now in a much smaller house in decidedly non-posh town.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
    Last edited by TSherbs; October 16th, 2021 at 02:08 PM.

  19. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,728
    Thanks
    341
    Thanked 547 Times in 373 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Fuck is overused, but there are times when dog gone just doesn’t work.

    We should all know by now that Kaz is a troll and has no original thoughts. If there were not something to copy and paste, he would be a lost ball in the weeds.

    @dneal has been riding that military experience pony so long that he’s forgotten how to ride a decent horse. Or, as the Brits might say, “a proper horse”.

  20. #58
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    508
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 211 Times in 167 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds;
    Those with whom I am happy to have a conversation understood it perfectly well, others did not. You're in the second group with dneal, in case you we having some difficulty with the previous sentence.
    And yet here you are, engaging in a conversation with me, trying to make your vocabulary my responsibility.

  21. #59
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    508
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 211 Times in 167 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    [QUOTE=TSherbs;339913]
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I am disappointed that I did not get an etymological analysis of "fuck face." After all, it is a bizarre epithet. I remember learning the etymology of "piss off." I was impressed, and came to appreciate British slang all the more.

    Is that "unimpeachably morally superior"? Ha. Hardly!
    No need for disappointment. You've always been pretty blunt in you opinions and language: good for you.

    You were included because EoC was posturing regarding the "we" who have better natures. As you've said you are not one of his we. He is a we of one.



  22. #60
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    1,904
    Thanks
    810
    Thanked 825 Times in 442 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Memes, dneal? Really?

    "Unimpeachable moral superiority"? Nice strawman.

    When I call you an abrasive prick, it's not from "moral superiority" of any kind, not even the "unimpeachable" variety. It's just a casual observation put in vulgar terms. I notice that you never deny it, and no one ever comes to your defense to deny it (not even kazoo). You guys simply say things like "but you're arrogant and angry and make me laugh at you."

    Well, fine. I'm a pedant, and you're a trolling prick. I want a discussion, you want an argument. I prefer the former, in friends, family, and forum correspondents. That's not a "moral" statement at all. It's just what I like and value.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
    Yes, memes. A picture is worth a thousand words, so I offered two thousand words as efficiently as I could. People complain of not having enough time, after all.

    But more importantly, why did you assume I was talking about you? I referenced no one in particular, but you took it personally. Perhaps your guilty conscience?

    If I'm a "trolling prick", why is it that you keep ending up on my hook? I can only suppose the pain of which is what causes your outbursts of expletives. I do confess that I find it somewhat disappointing, coming from an English teacher. One would think you could be more creative or eloquent. But you know what they say, those who cannot do... and all that.

    I offered an olive branch to each of you. You slapped it away. You seem incapable of refraining from commenting on my posts, even when they do not involve you.

    I couldn't care less who does or does not "come to my defense", because I'm more than secure enough (and emotionally stable enough) not to need it - but it doesn't seem to be the same for you (and others). Something broke you. Maybe Trump, maybe COVID, who knows. You continue to show your baser nature though. In all seriousness and with no maliciousness, I do think it would be good for your health to perhaps step away from this portion of the forum.

    p.s.: That wasn't a strawman. I'll explain if you really want.
    Be your own tenth man.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •