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Thread: Restoring Fortitude

  1. #61
    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    I offered an olive branch to each of you. You slapped it away. You seem incapable of refraining from commenting on my posts, even when they do not involve you.
    You didn't get the memo? It would be nice if people could at least be civil - I appreciate that civility is very much a foreign country for you. Your olive branch was corrupt and it really didn't take very long to see that. Sustained niceness - you should try it some time, maybe in the next life?

    As for kazoolaw, you're doing well in your campaign to get crowned as the Internet's biggest nit-picker. Bit of a low aspiration if you ask me.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; October 16th, 2021 at 05:53 PM.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Again, you already outed yourself - in plain view for everyone to see - in both my troll snare and kazoolaw’s clear analysis.

    The machinations you are going through in a vain effort to prove otherwise is simply entertainment for me at this point.
    Be your own tenth man.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post


    What's the thesis?
    Simply, that in the US, there's a focus on "freedom," specifically a perceived lack of constraint or restraint regarding individual action, as a virtue. Where in New Zealand (and to some extent, Australia) the focus is on the responsibility of government to extend an equitable social contract, even if it requires some constraints on individual behavior, specifically that sort which harms others or forecloses their social or economic options.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    But more importantly, why did you assume I was talking about you?
    I did not assume this. I commented on your action, not that it was about me directly. As you have done so with EoC, you are misattributing motive to others.

    f I'm a "trolling prick", why is it that you keep ending up on my hook? I can only suppose the pain of which is what causes your outbursts of expletives. I do confess that I find it somewhat disappointing, coming from an English teacher. One would think you could be more creative or eloquent. But you know what they say, those who cannot do... and all that.
    Because, as in this case, when you pretend to be cool and distanced but you are actually being a dick extraordinary, you simply deserve to be called so. Your faux objectivity and smooth syntax are, in these kinds of posts, nothing more than gloss on an asshole. I actually find you kind of sick, like pathologically. You have confessed what I consider to be a perverse pleasure out of all this passive-aggressive posturing that you do.

    I offered an olive branch to each of you. You slapped it away.
    I watched your "offer" to EoC, and I watched how you continued to chirp and insult him. You are insincere in your offers.

    You seem incapable of refraining from commenting on my posts, even when they do not involve you.
    Regardless of how this *seems,* you are wrong. I let many of your posts go.

    Nothing has "broken me," dneal, I assure you. I have been pretty frank: I just don't think that passive-aggressive assholes like you who bully and threaten and lie to others and present false theories should go unanswered. Every time that I see you pull some bullshit or post some tripe or other I am going to call it out. If you posted on something other than politics that didn't look like another trap-in-waiting, I would probably answer. You also tend to post links or videos and then just say, "Response?" This is not an enjoyable *conversation* to me. I don't watch videos for news or anything, really, except recipes, humor, DIY, and music clips. News or political commentary? No, I want to READ it and see the sentences.

    As you must be able to see, I write and exchange on other topics with other members. Why don't you try one and try to keep political fighting out of it?

    And I don't care that you don't care. As I have also said, I write these posts for others to read who come here, not for you. I do periodically put you on ignore and will do so again when it suits me. Some days I don't want to see who you are arguing with. Some days I don't mind. Like EoC wrote, there are some of "us" here who actually have interest in the topics and enjoy an exchange of ideas. But some of "us" really aren't looking for a battle and don't want to sharpen our understanding primarily through abrasion on others.
    Last edited by TSherbs; October 16th, 2021 at 06:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post


    What's the thesis?
    Simply, that in the US, there's a focus on "freedom," specifically a perceived lack of constraint or restraint regarding individual action, as a virtue. Where in New Zealand (and to some extent, Australia) the focus is on the responsibility of government to extend an equitable social contract, even if it requires some constraints on individual behavior, specifically that sort which harms others or forecloses their social or economic options.
    Thanks for explaining that, Chip. I appreciate it. I find American culture inimical to this discussion (generally) because the idea of larger social obligations to each other or sacrifices (especially economic) *for* each other become labeled *Marxist* or some such blunt blow meant to poison the conversation rather than deepen it.

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    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    That book sounds interesting. It should be noted, although I am sure anyone reading this is likely aware of this, that New Zealand society is not without its deeply ingrained prejudices and other flaws. There is also the question of scale that comes to my mind at least. The US and New Zealand are significantly different, in land area, in population sizes, isolation, and so on. These factors no doubt have a much influence on how societies function and how national identity (even stereotype) is formed.


    Ah hah! Just had a rummage through my University library and found that we have several copies including an e-version. It's now on my to-read list! Cheers, Chip.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    That book sounds interesting. It should be noted, although I am sure anyone reading this is likely aware of this, that New Zealand society is not without its deeply ingrained prejudices and other flaws. There is also the question of scale that comes to my mind at least. The US and New Zealand are significantly different, in land area, in population sizes, isolation, and so on. These factors no doubt have a much influence on how societies function and how national identity (even stereotype) is formed.


    Ah hah! Just had a rummage through my University library and found that we have several copies including an e-version. It's now on my to-read list! Cheers, Chip.
    Yes, we in the states have unique challenges and historical and cultural forms of identity. We've been blessed and cursed, and everything in between. And all on a large scale.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    TSherbs - you sure do a lot of arguing for someone who says they don't want an argument, chasing me around this forum commenting on my posts. You also said you didn't want conversation with me, but now you seem to indicate you do. Make up your mind.
    Be your own tenth man.

  13. #69
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    New Zealand society is not without its deeply ingrained prejudices and other flaws. There is also the question of scale that comes to my mind at least. The US and New Zealand are significantly different, in land area, in population sizes, isolation, and so on. These factors no doubt have a much influence on how societies function and how national identity (even stereotype) is formed.
    When I lived there and there was controversy over foreshore and resource rights (rangatiratanga), I heard quite a few nasty racist comments at dinner parties and from doctors, dentists, farmers, bankers, and other prominent pakeha. My spouse is a wildlife biologist and law professor specialising in biodiversity, land management, treaty rights, and similar areas, so I got a fair sample of New Zealand thinking in that wise.

    On the whole, I found New Zealand to have a more amenable public culture: decent public transport, lots of public toilets and other facilities, a much higher standard of face-to-face courtesy and concern for strangers, greater honesty in everyday dealings, and a general regard for service and support.

    Plus the beer is great and the sailing is brilliant!

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    [QUOTE=Empty_of_Clouds;339948]
    As for kazoolaw, you're doing well in your campaign to get crowned as the Internet's biggest nit-picker. Bit of a low aspiration if you ask me.
    Is this one of those conversations with me you choose not to engage in?

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    We should all know by now that Kaz is a troll and has no original thoughts. If there were not something to copy and paste, he would be a lost ball in the weeds
    Hi Chuck-

    I often copy and paste so that it's clear I'm not misquoting someone, and we're all talking about the same thing. It's also a habit from other forums where the original poster can go back and make the original post disappear, removing all context from my comments.

    As I mentioned in Post 45, I appreciate the effort you make to start topics about things you care about. It's also clear that some of your posts share things that are important to you, that you've thought about for a long time, and are willing to open up and share with this group. I apologize for being harsh in my replies to some of your comments, escalating what should have been a discussion or debate to an argument or brawl.

    But, as you recognized, copiers and pasters gotta copy and paste:

    "Yes, Kaz is clear as a clogged toliet. 😂😂😂😂"

    I guess, like fashion, potty jokes come back in style. Thanks for the smiles.


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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Thanks for explaining that, Chip. I appreciate it. I find American culture inimical to this discussion (generally) because the idea of larger social obligations to each other or sacrifices (especially economic) *for* each other become labeled *Marxist* or some such blunt blow meant to poison the conversation rather than deepen it.
    There is a focus on "freedom" and an ongoing debate between what is too much, and what is too little, government. There are certainly social obligations to each other. But I think "sacrifices" are generally choices the individual makes based upon the freedom to choose. If government makes and enforces that decision then it's no longer a sacrifice. Government's decision may, or may not, correspond to an individual's view of their social obligation.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post

    There is a focus on "freedom" and an ongoing debate between what is too much, and what is too little, government. There are certainly social obligations to each other. But I think "sacrifices" are generally choices the individual makes based upon the freedom to choose. If government makes and enforces that decision then it's no longer a sacrifice. Government's decision may, or may not, correspond to an individual's view of their social obligation.
    Is this an absolute position?

    In other words, IYO, is there no social contract implicit (or explicit) in being a citizen of a town, city, state, nation, (or world)? Are you saying that each individual in a modern society should be able to negotiate their individual obligations to the various communities I mentioned?
    Last edited by TSherbs; October 17th, 2021 at 07:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
    The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
    The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.
    I agree. Are you satisfied with our representative elections and referendum initiatives being the process through which citizens of communities have influence in the creation of that balance legally? Or, are you dissatisfied with this? (some people object to the process of winner-take-all, for example).

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    We should all know by now that Kaz is a troll and has no original thoughts. If there were not something to copy and paste, he would be a lost ball in the weeds
    Hi Chuck-

    I often copy and paste so that it's clear I'm not misquoting someone, and we're all talking about the same thing. It's also a habit from other forums where the original poster can go back and make the original post disappear, removing all context from my comments.

    As I mentioned in Post 45, I appreciate the effort you make to start topics about things you care about. It's also clear that some of your posts share things that are important to you, that you've thought about for a long time, and are willing to open up and share with this group. I apologize for being harsh in my replies to some of your comments, escalating what should have been a discussion or debate to an argument or brawl.

    But, as you recognized, copiers and pasters gotta copy and paste:

    "Yes, Kaz is clear as a clogged toliet. 😂😂😂😂"

    I guess, like fashion, potty jokes come back in style. Thanks for the smiles.

    Apology readily accepted. Sorry for the ad hominem comment as well.

  24. #77
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    I can see why fortitude would be a foreign concept to you, as opposed to the hit-and-run comments you try to pass as analysis.
    If anyone cares to discuss the personal aspects of "fortitude" perhaps we could compare our work histories and other pursuits rather than level empty accusations.

    I'm guessing the biggest risk you ever took was to cheat on your income tax.
    Last edited by Chip; October 18th, 2021 at 12:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
    The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.
    I agree. Are you satisfied with our representative elections and referendum initiatives being the process through which citizens of communities have influence in the creation of that balance legally? Or, are you dissatisfied with this? (some people object to the process of winner-take-all, for example).
    Yes, I think elections, referendums ( here called "ballot initiatives "), and recalls are sufficient provide engaged citizens the means to impact that balance.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    No, neither extreme of the individual/state spectrum is absolute.
    The issue, and debate about the issue, is where is the balance is.
    I agree. Are you satisfied with our representative elections and referendum initiatives being the process through which citizens of communities have influence in the creation of that balance legally? Or, are you dissatisfied with this? (some people object to the process of winner-take-all, for example).
    Yes, I think elections, referendums ( here called "ballot initiatives "), and recalls are sufficient provide engaged citizens the means to impact that balance.
    agreed

    but I don't even know if Maine has a formal recall process. It's never happened in the 30 years that I have lived here.

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    Default Re: Restoring Fortitude

    How to game a system, part n + 1

    When a Michigan governor faces a recall the campaign contribution limits are off. Gov. Whitmer has raised several millions though there has never been a recall vote. The Secretary of State has now said that money above the campaign limits can be refunded to the donors. Or contributed to the Democrat party. Or maybe just used by the Gov for other things.

    California has a similar "lift the limit" law. I think its law also provides that a host of candidates run against the sitting governor.

    I assume that all of these provisions are thought to provide some advantage to one side or the other. No surprise.

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