What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

[kazoolaw]

Essentially, not taking the vaccine as a member of a society is a selfish act, taking the vaccine is an act of social solidarity. [based on being able to have the vaccine, exceptions expected]

And on which side of your fence are those who were vaccinated and contracted covid?

[kazoolaw]

One mark of intelligence and common sense is the willingness to change one's opinions (and advice) according to a changing set of circumstances.

Didn't think speaking without knowing was a sign of wisdom, or science, in the first instance.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Essentially, not taking the vaccine as a member of a society is a selfish act, taking the vaccine is an act of social solidarity. [based on being able to have the vaccine, exceptions expected]

And on which side of your fence are those who were vaccinated and contracted covid?

Kind of misses the underlying point, which is that vaccinated people are less likely to contract COVID and therefore less likely to be a spreader. And I did note that there would be exceptions, but you just breezed by that in your haste to have a go.

[Chip]

I just think freedom is more valuable and life prompting for my neighbor and I in the long run.

Do you have the freedom to avoid your taxes?

Do you have the freedom to drive drunk and/or not use a seatbelt?

Do folks in the military have the freedom to disobey orders they don't like or that are inconvenient?

Do you have the freedom to build a bonfire and shoot off fireworks where there's a red flag fire ban?

Do bankers have the freedom to use the deposits of their customers to buy yachts, drugs, fast cars, and hookers?

Your notion of freedom seems both vague and childish.

[TSherbs]

And on which side of your fence are those who were vaccinated and contracted covid?

That's a pretty small group, and they tended to be less often seriously ill. Not sure what you mean with this. No vaccine offers perfect protection (which you know).

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[dneal]

Do you have the freedom to avoid your taxes?

Do you have the freedom to drive drunk and/or not use a seatbelt?

Do folks in the military have the freedom to disobey orders they don't like or that are inconvenient?

Do you have the freedom to build a bonfire and shoot off fireworks where there's a red flag fire ban?

Do bankers have the freedom to use the deposits of their customers to buy yachts, drugs, fast cars, and hookers?

Yes, one has all those freedoms. However, there are consequences for exercising them because there are laws that make them illegal.

You have simply listed a series of false analogies, and offered perhaps merely a "vague and childish" rebuttal.

Perhaps you're willing to change your opinion.

[Bold2013]

No wonder everyone wants to be a banker

[TSherbs]

Life promoting.

Fine.

So how is 700,000 American dead a form of "promoting life"?

[kazoolaw]

Essentially, not taking the vaccine as a member of a society is a selfish act, taking the vaccine is an act of social solidarity. [based on being able to have the vaccine, exceptions expected]

And on which side of your fence are those who were vaccinated and contracted covid?

Kind of misses the underlying point, which is that vaccinated people are less likely to contract COVID and therefore less likely to be a spreader. And I did note that there would be exceptions, but you just breezed by that in your haste to have a go.

Gosh, no EoC.
You're statement of "solidarity" makes public health into another us/them dichotomy. I would think that your Post 29 in the barriers topic would have lead you to consider some of Dr. Jay B's points about how not to do public health. Why are people vaccine resistant? The Tuskegee experiment? Testing of AIDS drugs on minors without independent advocates? Not acknowledging that the vaccines won't eliminate the disease? People making statements that we won't know how the vaccine effects children until we give it to enough children? Do Americans have a different attitude about government dictates than New Zealanders (is that a term?) and if so will dictates work? Do posers, who dictate masking and social distancing, having large parties without masks or social distancing promote solidarity for thee but not for me? What does announcing "social solidarity" do to restore the credibility of the US public health system?
Perhaps one would say that all those vaccine resisters prize their independence too highly. If they do, they still can be reached; insisting they must submit to some social movement hasn't worked so far.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

You're reading things into my opinion which, I will state, are just not there.

Why are people vaccine-resistant today? Simple - Andrew Wakefield. Before his fraudulent attempt to make a personal profit by sowing misinformation about vaccines there was no 'organised' or 'coherent' anti-vaccine movement of any real note (some fringe stuff mainly). Now we have this growing wave of ill-informed people standing against a vaccine at the worst imaginable time - during a dangerous pandemic. The Tuskegee experiment, testing AIDS drugs, and so on have not had anything like the same impact as the lies of Wakefield. The man deserves a lengthy jail sentence, possibly should be the subject of some human experimentation!

My opinion is based on two things:

1. My understanding is that as a member of a society I have certain obligations to that society. That is how I feel about it, others may feel differently.

2. My background in health sciences very strongly positions me on the side of vaccines and the evidence that I've seen/read/heard/experienced regarding them.


As to the method of applying public health measures or increasing public confidence in governments, that varies from place to place, even from group to group within place, so I can't presume to suggest anything.

[Chip]

Yes, one has all those freedoms. However, there are consequences for exercising them because there are laws that make them illegal.

You have simply listed a series of false analogies, and offered perhaps merely a "vague and childish" rebuttal.

Perhaps you're willing to change your opinion.

In each instance, the supposed freedom has great potential to harm not just the person exercising it, but others as well. In most cases, the consequences suffered by innocent others outweigh those resting on the person exercising the alleged freedom.

For instance, cheating on your taxes means you're not paying your share for public services and infrastructure, that you're using: roads, bridges, schools, fire departments, etc.

Driving drunk can lead to an auto accident in which you and innocent others are killed or badly injured. Not wearing a setbelt means your injuries will be worse, a burden on your family and the health care system, insurance, etc.

If you don't follow military orders, there could be a gap in the defensive effort and your unit could be wiped out.

Building fires and using fireworks creates not only damage to public and private lands, forests, and animals, but puts firefighters at risk (I was a wildland firefighter for years).

The banking bit is so obvious that even you must get it.

Not being vaccinated means you can spread the virus to innocent people who had no say in your exercise of an illusory freedom. Some might get very sick or die. Regardless of their politics, they will burden the health care system and add to the stress of workers, who likewise had no say.

You might look up the word psychopath. Your definition of freedom seems to accord rather well.

[dneal]

You're conflating freedom with ethics and responsibility, which is not surprising given that you couldn't follow the notion in the Fortitude thread either.

You are free to shout "fire" in a movie theater. That doesn't mean you should, and that doesn't mean you won't be punished for it.

Similarly, you have missed or ignored the point of this thread; choosing to blather typical echo-chamber nonsense. The actions of government officials, in concert with a large portion of the media; undermined trust. It was a failure of public health policy and communication, and it continues; perhaps for the reasons Dr. Bhattacharya lays out. Instead, certain little-minded hobgoblins consistently shout "get the vaccine", "mandates", etc... and wonder why their excoriations are not persuasive. Those same hobgoblins tend to fixate on personalities.

[Chuck Naill]

I know here that hospitials were overrun with adults who chose to exercise their freedom and unvaccinated children. The stress on supplies of monoclonial antibodies, equipment, rooms for others, and the staff who worked long hours and days without a break was caused by people choosing freedom.
"The latest American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) report shows that 22 children died from COVID-19 across the US during the week ending October 7, bringing the country’s official pediatric death toll to 542 since May 2020."
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../scho-o13.html

The more glaring selfishness is not chosing to take the vaccine. These same people refused to wear a mask and keep at a distance.

[dneal]

Why do you suppose people were (or are) exhibiting this behavior? What is prompting all the skepticism?

[kazoolaw]

Bolded words are my comments

You're reading things into my opinion which, I will state, are just not there.
You don't identify what I'm reading into and what's not there. This is what you said: Essentially, not taking the vaccine as a member of a society is a selfish act, taking the vaccine is an act of social solidarity. Vaccinated=solid. No vax=selfish. You're on one side or the other.

Why are people vaccine-resistant today? Simple - Andrew Wakefield. Before his fraudulent attempt to make a personal profit by sowing misinformation about vaccines there was no 'organised' or 'coherent' anti-vaccine movement of any real note (some fringe stuff mainly). Now we have this growing wave of ill-informed people standing against a vaccine at the worst imaginable time - during a dangerous pandemic. The Tuskegee experiment, testing AIDS drugs, and so on have not had anything like the same impact as the lies of Wakefield.
Had to look up Wakefield: have never heard his name in conversation. If you're talking about the pre-covid anti-vaxxers most folks here thought they were unbalanced. What areas have you canvassed as to the relative effect of Wakefield vs Tuskegee & AIDS testing & and having to vaccinate to find out the effect on children? And, knowing they are all factors to one degree or another, what would your background in health sciences suggest would lower the barrier to participation in vaccination? The man deserves a lengthy jail sentence, possibly should be the subject of some human experimentation!

My opinion is based on two things:

1. My understanding is that as a member of a society I have certain obligations to that society. That is how I feel about it, others may feel differently. Of course.

2. My background in health sciences very strongly positions me on the side of vaccines and the evidence that I've seen/read/heard/experienced regarding them. But we're not discussing your position, but moving the position of people who haven't been vaccinated.


As to the method of applying public health measures or increasing public confidence in governments, that varies from place to place, even from group to group within place, so I can't presume to suggest anything.Wouldn't you at least suggest trying to find the reasons for resistance? Would you agree that calling people selfish is unlikely to win friends, influence people, and get them vaccinated?

[Chuck Naill]

Had to look up Wakefield???? Seriously, were you raised in a closet? Why are you even on this thread? LOL!!

[Chip]

You're conflating freedom with ethics and responsibility, which is not surprising given that you couldn't follow the notion in the Fortitude thread either.
You are free to shout "fire" in a movie theater. That doesn't mean you should, and that doesn't mean you won't be punished for it.

One characteristic of a psychopath is the inability to feel the effect of their actions on others, focusing only on the likelihood of being caught and punished.

My inability to follow your thinking does not reveal any mental or moral problems on my part.

Check?

[Empty_of_Clouds]

@kazoolaw, I offered my opinion, it is what it is and I feel no need to pick it apart for discussion or to defend it. The tone of your responses is poor, and inclines me not to engage with posts of that ilk other than to point out your boorish behaviour.

This is just a conversation not a forensic clinic.

[dneal]

You're conflating freedom with ethics and responsibility, which is not surprising given that you couldn't follow the notion in the Fortitude thread either.
You are free to shout "fire" in a movie theater. That doesn't mean you should, and that doesn't mean you won't be punished for it.

One characteristic of a psychopath is the inability to feel the effect of their actions on others, focusing only on the likelihood of being caught and punished.

My inability to follow your thinking does not reveal any mental or moral problems on my part.

Check?

You can't follow a topic, you can't grasp basic logic nor distinguish two different principles at play. But you can assert that someone you have never met is a psychopath. While you're thumbing through the DSM, see if you can find "delusional"

Check, indeed.

[TSherbs]

dneal, perhaps you might try asking a question that promotes engagement rather than disputation.

I rechecked your initial post, and I can't find any question in it. What did you see as the purpose of this thread? My guess is that without a question that asks people to work in parallel, any thread like this will simply devolve into disputatious acrimony, despite your requests for something else.

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