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Thread: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

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    Default What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    First, I would ask (even plead) that those who have strong or absolute opinions on this subject, those who do not have or do not want to spend time watching or listening to a YouTube video, and/or those who have only snide and sarcastic comments to offer - could you please refrain from responding and just move on to another thread or topic?

    There is evidence that people are capable of discussing this topic reasonably, THIS THREAD being an example.

    A recent Uncommon Knowledge episode reviewing the past 19 months of COVID came to my attention (roughly a week old at the time of this posting). Some can view it from an "I told you so" perspective, but that's a petty viewpoint. Instead, it is beneficial to review what we did and didn't know as opposed to what we now know (remaining cognizant of the many "unknowns" that now exist); to guide future decision making.

    There is a dearth of information in this video that can serve that purpose.

    The episode is roughly an hour. It does not require watching, and you can listen while you go about your day. Morning rituals, exercising, driving to work, etc... there are many opportunities one can take advantage of.

    In the past, some have asked for a "transcript"; and I have accommodated when I could. There are too many sub-topics in this discussion for me to do that now, and I might in the future as I have time to dedicate to it. However, if you click the LINK, you will see an icon with three dots at the lower right (usually next to "save"). Clicking those dots will give you an option to display a transcript, which is far from perfect as it is the collection of closed captions; but it is better than nothing.

    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    If you are going to post such, at least provide a balanced set of information.
    "The World Health Organization (WHO) and numerous academic and public-health bodies have stated that the proposed strategy is dangerous and lacks a sound scientific basis.[8][9] They say that it would be challenging to shield all those who are medically vulnerable, leading to a large number of avoidable deaths among both older people and younger people with pre-existing health conditions,[10][11] and they warn that the long-term effects of COVID-19 are still not fully understood.[9][12] Moreover, the WHO says that the herd immunity component of the proposed strategy is undermined by the limited duration of post-infection immunity.[9][12] They say the more likely outcome would be recurrent epidemics, as was the case with numerous infectious diseases before the advent of vaccination.[11] The American Public Health Association and 13 other public-health groups in the United States warned in a joint open letter that the Great Barrington Declaration "ignores sound public health expertise" despite public health experts agreeing "better balance must be found between protecting public health and helping the economy."[8]

    The Great Barrington Declaration was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research, a libertarian free market think tank associated with climate change denial.[13][14][15"

    Otherwise, you a cupable of spreading misinformation or at least incomplete information.

    If masks were ineffective, surgeons and scrub nurses would not need to scrub up. If vaccines were only a personal option, like which underarm deodorant to use, we would continue to have people living in iron lungs from poliovirus.

    If you don't want a vaccine, don't ask for an ICU bed.

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    *sigh*
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    I would be curious to hear if prior vaccines were pushed so vehemently as this one.

    Never heard people up in arms about flu shots, mmr, hepatitis, or tetanus. Well I guess there was some mild heat over the Gardasil vaccine…

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Peter Robinson does politicize the conversation, but Dr. Bhattacharya avoids that generally and keeps to a context of public health policy. That's the "idea" in the piece. Not vaccines. He states he thinks vaccines are a good thing. He states that he was vaccinated (although he did contract COVID some months after that).

    The interview begins with a review of his March 2020 WSJ article, advancing a hypothesis (based on his experience with H1N1) that the virus was much more prevalent than we suspected. His questions revolved around true mortality rate, and effectiveness of "lockdown" policies.

    Peter introduces the criticism Dr. Bhattacharya, Harvard epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff and Oxford epidemiologist Sunetra Gupta received from the "Great Barrington Declaration", which simply advocated a more targeted response of protecting the more vulnerable. An example is multi-generational households where a younger member might have contracted COVID. Government paid hotel rooms should have been provided for the older (and more vulnerable) member(s) of the home. This is a lesson we probably should have learned from Italy. There is nothing new with the policy advocated, and it is the "standard" in dealing with these types of situations. It was mischaracterized, and he describes what "herd immunity" actually is.

    If dealing with an outbreak that hasn't spread widely, quarantines and contact tracing are appropriate. But when the prevalence, or spread, is as wide as COVID had become once we detected it; "lockdowns" do not work. The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak. That is why you change your focus to the most vulnerable. Another key factor is that we know (and have for a long time) that risk increases exponentially with age. So where Fauci mischaracterized and mocked the approach with "you don't 'let it rip'...", the rebuttal is basically that the CDC and WHO "let it drip..."

    Dr. Bhattacharya describes the impacts to multiple other populations. Children's education. People delaying (and dying from) an assortment of issues ranging from cancer to diabetes. Domestic abuse which declined strangely, but perhaps not so strangely when schools are one of the fundamental routes it is detected. He goes on, citing increased suicide rates and other problems with the "lockdown" approach.

    That is really only for the developed world. The impact to the third world in particular, resulting from second and third order economic impacts; are horrifying. Even in first world countries, lockdown policies disproportionately impacted the poor. The affluent could withstand the lockdown, because they could telecommute or simply had enough money. The poor still went to their "essential" jobs stocking shelves, delivering packages (stuffed at Amazon warehouses), etc... They simply could not afford to stay home. Other poor in foodservice industries and other "non-essential" jobs were further impoverished.

    Public health policy, he asserts, is political science. Politicians must weigh benefits and consequences within the totality of the circumstances, yet it was handed off to people who are paid to have a single focus. We should have a wider view in the future.

    Lastly, they address how the choices undermined public trust and confidence. That's the problem with the CDC's changing mask guidance, for example. The flip-flopping alone is detrimental to confidence, but we now know the reason we were told not to wear them (before we were) was intentionally deceptive - no matter how noble the reason (mask availability). We still do not have real data on mask effectiveness, even though we've had a year and a half to examine it. That's a shame in and of itself, but Dr. Bhattacharya notes that it is precisely the lack of data that prompts divisiveness.

    There is more, but you would have to watch or listen.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    I never remember, in the US, an issue with vaccines until Andrew Wakefiled's debunked MMR/Autism link information. Unfortunately, it seems to have influenced Evangelicals most. It occured in my own family where a mother told a daughter God told her ,the grandmother, to tell her, the children's mother, not to let her children get the chicken pox vaccine. You'd think God would have communicated directly with the mother of the children!!

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Peter Robinson does politicize the conversation, but Dr. Bhattacharya avoids that generally and keeps to a context of public health policy. That's the "idea" in the piece. Not vaccines. He states he thinks vaccines are a good thing. He states that he was vaccinated (although he did contract COVID some months after that).

    The interview begins with a review of his March 2020 WSJ article, advancing a hypothesis (based on his experience with H1N1) that the virus was much more prevalent than we suspected. His questions revolved around true mortality rate, and effectiveness of "lockdown" policies.

    Peter introduces the criticism Dr. Bhattacharya, Harvard epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff and Oxford epidemiologist Sunetra Gupta received from the "Great Barrington Declaration", which simply advocated a more targeted response of protecting the more vulnerable. An example is multi-generational households where a younger member might have contracted COVID. Government paid hotel rooms should have been provided for the older (and more vulnerable) member(s) of the home. This is a lesson we probably should have learned from Italy. There is nothing new with the policy advocated, and it is the "standard" in dealing with these types of situations. It was mischaracterized, and he describes what "herd immunity" actually is.

    If dealing with an outbreak that hasn't spread widely, quarantines and contact tracing are appropriate. But when the prevalence, or spread, is as wide as COVID had become once we detected it; "lockdowns" do not work. The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak. That is why you change your focus to the most vulnerable. Another key factor is that we know (and have for a long time) that risk increases exponentially with age. So where Fauci mischaracterized and mocked the approach with "you don't 'let it rip'...", the rebuttal is basically that the CDC and WHO "let it drip..."

    Dr. Bhattacharya describes the impacts to multiple other populations. Children's education. People delaying (and dying from) an assortment of issues ranging from cancer to diabetes. Domestic abuse which declined strangely, but perhaps not so strangely when schools are one of the fundamental routes it is detected. He goes on, citing increased suicide rates and other problems with the "lockdown" approach.

    That is really only for the developed world. The impact to the third world in particular, resulting from second and third order economic impacts; are horrifying. Even in first world countries, lockdown policies disproportionately impacted the poor. The affluent could withstand the lockdown, because they could telecommute or simply had enough money. The poor still went to their "essential" jobs stocking shelves, delivering packages (stuffed at Amazon warehouses), etc... They simply could not afford to stay home. Other poor in foodservice industries and other "non-essential" jobs were further impoverished.

    Public health policy, he asserts, is political science. Politicians must weigh benefits and consequences within the totality of the circumstances, yet it was handed off to people who are paid to have a single focus. We should have a wider view in the future.

    Lastly, they address how the choices undermined public trust and confidence. That's the problem with the CDC's changing mask guidance, for example. The flip-flopping alone is detrimental to confidence, but we now know the reason we were told not to wear them (before we were) was intentionally deceptive - no matter how noble the reason (mask availability). We still do not have real data on mask effectiveness, even though we've had a year and a half to examine it. That's a shame in and of itself, but Dr. Bhattacharya notes that it is precisely the lack of data that prompts divisiveness.

    There is more, but you would have to watch or listen.
    What should have been done, "D"? Lets say you were in charge in December 2019 and heard of the Chinese novel virus being transmitted person to person and very infective, different from SARS. Pretend you are an epidemiologist/infectios disease expert. Pretend you have no concern who is running for president, which should be easy as a non participant.

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Watch or listen to the video, if you want to know.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Oh, you are a part of the video. Which one is you?

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    *sigh*
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Oh, you are a part of the video. Which one is you?
    Chuck, did you watch the video?
    That's a "yes" or a " no."

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Oh, you are a part of the video. Which one is you?

    Chuck, did you watch the video?
    That's a "yes" or a " no."
    Did you, that’s also a yea or no question.

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Oh, you are a part of the video. Which one is you?

    Chuck, did you watch the video?
    That's a "yes" or a " no."
    Did you, that’s also a yea or no question.
    Chuck, why your evasion?
    Yes, I did.
    Now your response, please.

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Oh, you are a part of the video. Which one is you?

    Chuck, did you watch the video?
    That's a "yes" or a " no."
    Did you, that’s also a yea or no question.
    Chuck, why your evasion?
    Yes, I did.
    Now your response, please.
    I doubt you invested in an hour long video.

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I never remember, in the US, an issue with vaccines until Andrew Wakefiled's debunked MMR/Autism link information. Unfortunately, it seems to have influenced Evangelicals most. It occured in my own family where a mother told a daughter God told her ,the grandmother, to tell her, the children's mother, not to let her children get the chicken pox vaccine. You'd think God would have communicated directly with the mother of the children!!
    Another good example. Covid has a much larger divide but it is too early to say how long it will persist. Thanks

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    It is possible that had the experts been allowed to have the stage, a lock down would have been averted. Sticking your finger in a hole doesn’t work after the dam fails .

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    February 2020, the stock market tanks and Trump is in India. He had no idea. Not because he was being I formed but because he had what he thought were more important matters to address.

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Thing is, most of us can remember February and March 2020. We can remember the stock market tanking. We can remember the Pence being out as the Czar. Given all that we lived through. Why is a Monday quarterback even necessary?

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Oh, you are a part of the video. Which one is you?

    Chuck, did you watch the video?
    That's a "yes" or a " no."
    Did you, that’s also a yea or no question.
    Chuck, why your evasion?
    Yes, I did.
    Now your response, please.
    I doubt you invested in an hour long video.
    And now we now your comments aren't based on the video.
    The Trump/India/stock market comment is unrelated to the topic.
    Taking the discussion off track looks like sabotage after a while.

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    dneal (October 31st, 2021)

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    Default Re: What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID

    If you knew anything or was sober in February 2020, you would know how relevant it is.

    No offense, but your a lazy poster. Very little energy and effort. More troll like. I’ve read your posts on other forums. Same there as well .

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