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Thread: Freedom to Vote Act

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    Default Freedom to Vote Act

    I agree.

    Pass the Freedom to Vote Act

    https://www.newamerica.org/political...m-to-vote-act/

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    The statement is long on rhetoric and short on what is in the bill. Anyway, I'm on board with all sorts of voting issues. Gerrymandering, Reynolds v Sims (the SC ruling States had to apportion all legislative seats), etc...

    I keep hearing Democrats claim that voter ID requirements hurt minorities (although it also seems to assert minorities are too "something" (stupid?) to get an ID...). The data doesn't seem to support the Democrat argument.

    Govt-ID.jpg
    Last edited by dneal; November 22nd, 2021 at 03:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Why would someone who doesn't vote be on board??? Do you think before you post. LOL!!!!!!ha ha ha ha ha ))))

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    And Chuck derails yet another thread…
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    And Chuck derails yet another thread…
    You don't vote. Enought said.

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Fucking monkeys are everywhere.
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Why would anyone who doesn’t vote start a thread about voting?

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    psst, Chuck... TSherbs started the thread, not me. Do try to keep up.
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    psst, Chuck... TSherbs started the thread, not me. Do try to keep up.
    True. My bad.

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The data doesn't seem to support the Democrat argument.

    Govt-ID.jpg
    Yes, it does. (and it is not just "Democrats" making this argument)

    More fundamentally, with no statistically significant voter fraud found anywhere in the US, there should be no laws passed that result in the disenfranchisement of any US citizens for any reason whatsoever. The reduction of any voting group, by even one percentage point, is a crime against the fundamental concept of universal citizenship suffrage. And since so many states are introducing legislation that will result in the reduction of voting ability of otherwise fully eligible citizens, the federal Freedom to Vote Act needs to be passed. I wish it weren't so, but that is what has happened as a result of the Big Lie.

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    I moved and had to get a new drivers license aka "real ID". I tried to use the online portal to obtain an appointment. Which was unavailable. I called the court house and they said keep trying. Eventually I drove to another city 40 miles away. I cannot imagine someone without personaly transportation.

    We take so many things for granted and whine because someone tells us to get a vaccine or wear a mask and that our freedoms are challanged. It is pitiful and laughable to see white people complain so much when so many are challanged in ways we will never experience.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The data doesn't seem to support the Democrat argument.

    Govt-ID.jpg
    Yes, it does. (and it is not just "Democrats" making this argument)

    More fundamentally, with no statistically significant voter fraud found anywhere in the US, there should be no laws passed that result in the disenfranchisement of any US citizens for any reason whatsoever. The reduction of any voting group, by even one percentage point, is a crime against the fundamental concept of universal citizenship suffrage. And since so many states are introducing legislation that will result in the reduction of voting ability of otherwise fully eligible citizens, the federal Freedom to Vote Act needs to be passed. I wish it weren't so, but that is what has happened as a result of the Big Lie.
    Your link does not provide the text of the proposed bill, so it's difficult to discern what they are in favor of other than the usual political rhetoric. I picked "disenfranchisement" due to proposed ID requirements. You say the data does support the argument, but the chart clearly shows that each ethnic group has over 90% possession of government issued identification. I am not clear on how you reconcile that.

    Regarding "voter fraud", absence of evidence doesn't constitute evidence of absence. Maybe it's more prevalent than we think, maybe it's less. That should be reason to look into it, not dismiss it; if we are to increase voter confidence. The recommendations in the bipartisan Carter-Baker commission, one of which is advocating voter integrity through identification, have still not been adopted.
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    "Absence of evidence doesn't constitute evidence of absence" can be the beginning of a conspiracy theory and the basis of an argument of ignorance. When people say, "I can't prove it, but", where does it logically proceed? It reminds me of the lady that told my relative that God told her to not allow her children to have the chicken pox vaccine.

    By the numbers, Trump could not have lost the election by fraud if you consider the number of states involved. Trump essentially was saying, just because I can't prove it does not mean it is not true.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    You're right that it could be the beginning of a conspiracy theory. But if there is a problem (voter confidence, in one case); it seems reasonable to investigate. To discover the truth and assuage the concerns of the majority of voters. It's not just Trump. Gore and Clinton made claims of "stolen" elections. Stacy Abrams was just as ridiculous as Trump. Dismiss it with the word "whataboutism", but the fact remains that each side has concerns (whether justified or not) when they lose. D and R voters both feel "cheated". There's nothing wrong with addressing what is undermining voter confidence.

    Doesn't matter to me if it's "disenfranchisement" of minorities - and there's limited evidence that it does, and more evidence that it doesn't; or "voter fraud" - and there is a lot of evidence of small-case fraud, and some evidence of historical organized fraud via political machines. We have names for the latter. "Tammany Hall", "Daley", "Pendergast".

    They all deserve thorough consideration.
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You're right that it could be the beginning of a conspiracy theory. But if there is a problem (voter confidence, in one case); it seems reasonable to investigate. To discover the truth and assuage the concerns of the majority of voters. It's not just Trump. Gore and Clinton made claims of "stolen" elections. Stacy Abrams was just as ridiculous as Trump. Dismiss it with the word "whataboutism", but the fact remains that each side has concerns (whether justified or not) when they lose. D and R voters both feel "cheated". There's nothing wrong with addressing what is undermining voter confidence.

    Doesn't matter to me if it's "disenfranchisement" of minorities - and there's limited evidence that it does, and more evidence that it doesn't; or "voter fraud" - and there is a lot of evidence of small-case fraud, and some evidence of historical organized fraud via political machines. We have names for the latter. "Tammany Hall", "Daley", "Pendergast".

    They all deserve thorough consideration.
    We agree with much you wrote. I just think voting should be as easy as falling off a log with proper and easy to obtain documentation. Right now obtaining the real ID is not easy. My 70 year old polio afflicted friend has had challanges that should not be in place. She is white, BTW.

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    The "real ID" can be a pain in the butt, and I never saw the need for it - or the constitutional authority for the federal government to mandate it. I'm not positive that "real ID" is required to vote though. Most States simply require a government issued ID, and are relatively liberal on what constitutes that. I'm content with over 90% saturation, and I don't think it's possible to reach perfection (100%).
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The "real ID" can be a pain in the butt, and I never saw the need for it - or the constitutional authority for the federal government to mandate it. I'm not positive that "real ID" is required to vote though. Most States simply require a government issued ID, and are relatively liberal on what constitutes that. I'm content with over 90% saturation, and I don't think it's possible to reach perfection (100%).
    I am just saying it should be easy and not constitute an undue burden on anyone. If you can be summonded to jury duty, they know who you are and where you live.

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Any screening process that does not permit 100% of eligible US citizens to vote is, in my mind, unjustified and wrong.

    Each of the numbers you cite above had %s below 100, and the number for African Ams was 7 percentage points below.

    And no, there was no substantial evidence of even small scale fraud in the 2020 election. We have discussed this on another thread where i tracked down every reported official case in those 7 disputed states. There were a total of five cases (if my memory is right).

    These new attempts at voter restrictions in the 25 are unfounded in both reason and evidence and are likely based in the more cynical motives of power politics and the battle over state control.

    I consider this a moral crime in a democracy based on universal citizenship suffrage.

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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    Ok, but what obligation does the citizen incur to obtain or provide proof of identity?

    I didn't say there was no substantial evidence. There is evidence, despite your dismissal.

    These "new attempts at voter restrictions" remain unclear. A characterization that includes motive. Where is the text of the bill? Where is the data describing the problem? We're not going to ever reach 100%. That's an unrealistic expectation. What is the voter turnout average? 50%?

    --edit--

    Voter turnout link, expressed as Voting Age Population and Voter Eligible Population

    Looks to be in the 50-60% range.

    MIT addresses 2020, and it's slightly higher depending on location.
    Last edited by dneal; November 23rd, 2021 at 10:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Freedom to Vote Act

    One shouldn't assume that *all* those who want to vote will be among the set of those who have proper ID.

    Besides, again, the ethicality of the law should not be determined by the low turnout numbers in typical US elections. Rather, the law should not effectively prohibit or discourage *any* otherwise eligible voters (adult citizens). Not a single one.

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