Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

[Bold2013]

Also my stance doesn’t change even if no one dies from the vaccine.

[TSherbs]

This was in my AP News feed today: a worsening crisis in Poland, too.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavir...f39c8bf96955e8

The home of Truth and Justice. Maybe Freedom as well.

Good luck with that. . .

Really, I just hope that ethernautrix and others in that country are ok.

[Chuck Naill]

Also my stance doesn’t change even if no one dies from the vaccine.

Perhaps you've explained before, and if so, I apologize for asking again. How did you come to formulate your position and decision no to receive the vaccine? Do you get any vaccines? I spoke to an old friend yesterday who is in her 80's who said he had no plans to receive the vaccine. I didn't try to pursuade and she didn't elaborate.

[Bold2013]

I am a fully vaccinated physician. I see Covid most days at work. The vaccine statistically protects people from the worst outcomes (might not entirely for the very frail/immunocompromised). So I think the best protection comes with focus on individual behavior rather than another’s. For example: if I am immunocompromised I would be vaccinated, wear a mask and wouldn’t go to Walmart. I’m not worried about strangers and internet opponents being vaccinated.

But there will be very very rare instances where an asymptomatic non vax person infects a vaxed person and it leads to their death. But I deal with this as a cost of freedom. Freedom is a war we fight every generation.

Don’t get me wrong I think we can and must fight for freedom and against the pandemic simultaneously. It’s starts with giving others the benefit of the doubt while maintain personal responsibility.

[Chuck Naill]

I am a fully vaccinated physician. I see Covid most days at work. The vaccine statistically protects people from the worst outcomes (might not entirely for the very frail/immunocompromised). So I think the best protection comes with focus on individual behavior rather than another’s. For example: if I am immunocompromised I would be vaccinated, wear a mask and wouldn’t go to Walmart. I’m not worried about strangers and internet opponents being vaccinated.

But there will be very very rare instances where an asymptomatic non vax person infects a vaxed person and it leads to their death. But I deal with this as a cost of freedom. Freedom is a war we fight every generation.

Don’t get me wrong I think we can and must fight for freedom and against the pandemic simultaneously. It’s starts with giving others the benefit of the doubt while maintain personal responsibility.

My concern has been, being fully three does vaccinated, is with my grandchildren or other children who were not able to get a vaccine earlier in the year. If I can carry the virus and still be fully vaccinated, I would continue to mask and distance. For me it is similar to being prepared. I try to be consistant with all aspects of my actions. To use a silly analogy, I wear Gortex boots whether it rains or not. Or, I wear a personal flotation device paddling white water all the time and not just if I think I might need one.

I agree we must want to be free and act accordingly. As the saying goes, "I might not agree with you, but I would fight for your right to say it". That said, it is not ethical for me to not tell the truth or to not fully inform even if it disagrees with what I want to think.

I am a retired pharma rep with 25 years experience. Doctors always wanted an evidenced based presentation and not slick company leave pieces. So, this have come to how I form ideas and concepts about how to think and act. When Michael Osterholm said the virus was an aerolyized type, I understood masking was going to be important.

[Bold2013]

I think that stats are far more positive for outcomes in children. Maybe the less kids without other health issues are vaxed maybe the faster they will spread it to each other for us to reach herd immunity.

[Bold2013]

Really antibodies are what will get us through. Natural and/or engineered. Time will get us there. Have faith and relax.

[Chuck Naill]

800k dead, hospitals overflowing, and 1000 dying per day says it’s not a time to relax. Can’t imagine a doctor suggesting

[Bold2013]

We don’t have as much control over this as we think. So control what you can control. Find joy regardless.

[Chuck Naill]

Nuts lol

[Chip]

Starting a book recommended by someone or other—Rationality by Stephen Pinker— I found this bit, perhaps pertinent to our discussion. (Couldn't copy the text, so I highlighted it and did screenshots.)




On another thread, I asked if anyone else had taken statistics, quantitative analysis, or the like. Pinker suggests that as a vital and frequently neglected part of rationality.

[dneal]

Let me know when you finish the book, and perhaps we can come back to that post.

[TSherbs]

...why is it so hard to convince the (American) public to get vaccinated?

Mostly ignorance and fear and political tribalism.

And another partial answer: from NPR: 1 in 10 Americans say the COVID-19 vaccine conflicts with their religious beliefs.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/10626...ncy-exemptions

[Chuck Naill]

...why is it so hard to convince the (American) public to get vaccinated?

Mostly ignorance and fear and political tribalism.

And another partial answer: from NPR: 1 in 10 Americans say the COVID-19 vaccine conflicts with their religious beliefs.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/10626...ncy-exemptions

Another reason is being too “relaxed “.

[Chuck Naill]

I am hearing this morning of the unvaccinated pouring into Bethleham, PA hosptial systems. While some say we can't beat the virus and that I should relax, from a doctor no less, perhaps some are too relaxed for their own welfare.

[dneal]

I am hearing from a former Pharma salesman, no less, that we should contribute to their coffers by taking a vaccine with no long-term data and effectiveness that is proving to be much lower that we were "sold" on.

Does that sort of language persuade? Does it further the conversation (which incidentally continues to ignore the actual topic)?

[Chuck Naill]

I am hearing from a former Pharma salesman, no less, that we should contribute to their coffers by taking a vaccine with no long-term data and effectiveness that is proving to be much lower that we were "sold" on.

Does that sort of language persuade? Does it further the conversation (which incidentally continues to ignore the actual topic)?

Maybe more accurately contribute to their coffins. Maybe some former army people are immune to death and destruction.

You can decide based on other members comments to you whether conversations are furthered.

[dneal]

None of us is immune to death. It comes for us all, and we can only "enjoy the interval" as Seneca says.

But since you want to go with silly, personally-oriented rhetoric, ok.

Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial

Surely this is just a one-off incident, in the hurry to get the vaccine out. Right?

Well, maybe not. From 2016:

Physician whistleblower is awarded $59m in Pfizer settlement

So yes, let's take medical advice from a former pharma-rep who brags that he was "fortunate" enough to pay cash for his children's college educations. I wonder how that "fortune" came about?

See how that works, Chuck?

[Chuck Naill]

Maybe heed your own advice, @dneal and see if you can come off others ignore list. I doubt it.

[dneal]

My own advice? I think you misread my post.

I don't take advice from folks who profited greatly pushing overpriced drugs for big pharma. At least I know now why you hate the ivermectin topic so much though, it's not profitable now that it's out of patent. Explains a lot, and makes one wonder what investments are paying for Chuck's retirement. Merck? Pfizer?

Is this the invective you prefer, Chuck?

p.s.: folks that put me on their ignore list are actually doing me a favor.