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Thread: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

  1. #21
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    The seatbelt analogy is false. Conscription is a little closer, but still false.

    An accurate analogy would be if a government showed up with a 1 million-round revolver, loaded with 8 bullets. A form of Russian roulette, mandated. Put it to your head, and pull the trigger. Now your spouse, now your kids, now the government moves on to the next house. Your odds (or those of your loved ones) of dying is only 8 in a million. If for whatever hypothetical reason this would save exponentially more lives, would it be ethical? That is the gist of the dilemma.

    But bear in mind the purpose of these vaccine mandates: to "win the war on COVID" and other buzz-phrase formulations. It ignores that the virus has mutated, and likely will continue to. It ignores that the vaccine doesn't prevent contraction or transmission. It doesn't prevent death (in those 999,992 times it doesn't kill). It only improves odds.

    Just like "lockdowns" (except for all the reasons you don't have to follow them...), the contradictions are obvious. People see the contradictions, which is why you see protests across the globe over "mandates". That's also why lockdowns are relevant to this thread. It is one more use of power people find illegitimate. It is something some people find an overstepping of authority. Perhaps they really find it all unethical

    They have a point.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    About the legal mandate for seatbelts in vehicles, the number of people who die or are injured as a result of being trapped by them is far fewer than those who are saved from death or injury by using them. The same goes for motorcycle helmets.

    When some errant bonehead's idea of freedom creates significant liabilities for the society (medical treatment, stress on healthcare workers, anguish and loss of support for families) it seems like a near absolute lack of responsibility and human decency to insist on determined stupidity as a sort of freedom.
    I agree with you and was not suggesting an equivalency in mortality statistics, by any means. I was simply stating that following the regulation would actually result in some deaths. But yes, very very few, especially in comparison to the resulting number of the regulation is not followed.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Austria, not Australia. I was contrasting the two...
    Too many hours at a computer monitor: sorry I misread your post.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    While the seat belt and liability insurance requirement is the same or similar. I have no motivation to argue or discuss.

  7. #25
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    An accurate analogy would be if a government showed up with a 1 million-round revolver, loaded with 8 bullets. A form of Russian roulette, mandated. Put it to your head, and pull the trigger.
    Hard to see how you can be amazingly, insensately stupid about how the world works.

    Do you get it that dickheads who choose not to be vaccinated can not only get sick but infect others, causing them to suffer and perhaps die? And you serve up this blatant crap about the government?

  8. #26
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    I thought you had me on ignore (twice now, if I recall correctly)?

    Do you lack courage of convictions, or are you just a liar?

    The fact that you can't follow a topic and default to vitriol has well been established.

    Try harder, there are millions of you on the interwebz.

    --edit--

    p.s.: Dickheads that do get vaccinated can do all those things you mention too. Facts don't care about your feelings!
    Last edited by dneal; November 23rd, 2021 at 08:30 PM.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  9. #27
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    FYI, the ignore function is subject to my choice. I can choose to to view your posts, which I do on occasion. It's like walking past the local dope dealer's place and chucking a few pebbles through the chainlink fence at his raging pit bull. Low-risk aggro.

    You have the illusion, perhaps a symptom, that you alone define the topic.

    As usual, you respond to contrary points with insults, and little else.

  10. #28
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    No Chip, post #25 is you (again) initiating this type of rhetoric. Like others, your thought is superficial and you begin with insults when your argument fails. I merely respond in kind.

    Do you think you're the first to pout your lip and declare you will ignore me? "To the ignore list with you, Bye!" or something of the sort which you felt necessary to declare. Behavior of a petulant toddler, now making excuses for his lack of self control.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  11. #29
    Senior Member Cyril's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The seatbelt analogy is false. Conscription is a little closer, but still false.

    An accurate analogy would be if a government showed up with a 1 million-round revolver, loaded with 8 bullets. A form of Russian roulette, mandated. Put it to your head, and pull the trigger. Now your spouse, now your kids, now the government moves on to the next house. Your odds (or those of your loved ones) of dying is only 8 in a million. If for whatever hypothetical reason this would save exponentially more lives, would it be ethical? That is the gist of the dilemma.

    But bear in mind the purpose of these vaccine mandates: to "win the war on COVID" and other buzz-phrase formulations. It ignores that the virus has mutated, and likely will continue to. It ignores that the vaccine doesn't prevent contraction or transmission. It doesn't prevent death (in those 999,992 times it doesn't kill). It only improves odds.

    Just like "lockdowns" (except for all the reasons you don't have to follow them...), the contradictions are obvious. People see the contradictions, which is why you see protests across the globe over "mandates". That's also why lockdowns are relevant to this thread. It is one more use of power people find illegitimate. It is something some people find an overstepping of authority. Perhaps they really find it all unethical

    They have a point.
    I am in a wrong place >>>>
    All the healings and blessings. to you all
    Last edited by Cyril; November 25th, 2021 at 06:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    But bear in mind the purpose of these vaccine mandates: to "win the war on COVID" and other buzz-phrase formulations. It ignores that the virus has mutated, and likely will continue to. It ignores that the vaccine doesn't prevent contraction or transmission. It doesn't prevent death (in those 999,992 times it doesn't kill). It only improves odds.
    Improve odds, doesn't prevent death? That is a form of lexical semantics. The evidence, adjusted for confounding, shows that the number of deaths directly due to COVID-19 is lower in fully vaccinated people than in those without any vaccination. Vaccinations most certainly do prevent death from cause.

    And no, vaccination programs do not ignore mutations or transmissibility - that's the language used to undermine the simple fact that vaccinations are current best practice, not perfect practice. Until something better is invented/discovered, it's without a shadow of a doubt the best resource we have, and certainly a lot better than not having vaccines available. People who speak against it generally do so on the basis of it not being perfect. Expecting a perfect solution is profound indicator of a lack of understanding of life processes on Earth.


    Other than that I restate from an earlier posting that I fully believe in social responsibility, for organisations as well as individuals.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    I think of it as we weren’t as warm had we had seasoned wood, or wool is preferred, but synthetic fleece is all we had.

  14. #32
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    No Chip, post #25 is you (again) initiating this type of rhetoric. Like others, your thought is superficial and you begin with insults when your argument fails. I merely respond in kind.

    Do you think you're the first to pout your lip and declare you will ignore me? "To the ignore list with you, Bye!" or something of the sort which you felt necessary to declare. Behavior of a petulant toddler, now making excuses for his lack of self control.
    I obviously annoy you much more than you annoy me. While I find your mental contortions mildly amusing, I'll go on mostly ignoring your posts.


  15. #33
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Not quite the self portrait of you I imagined, Chip, but close enough.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    😅😅😅

  17. #35
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Could a bad person grow tomatoes like this?


  18. #36
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    @Cyril. Respectfully, what you posted looks an awful lot like the other echo-chamber. Is there a "conspiracy" for most all politicians to leverage the system of campaign donations, fundraisers, lobbyist "requests", business interests, etc... all scratching each other's backs for profit? I'm on board.

    Some of the other things you're posting are a little "pedophiles drinking infant blood on billionaire island" leaning. My mother was just telling me about Bill Gates wanting to kill people to reduce the population, and then gave an example of someone squeezing "something" in some young foreign boy's mouth. Poison to kill him, of course. I told her it is the polio vaccine, and the Gates Foundation has made herculean efforts in eradicating it. It's in his bio. I'm way on board with nuclear power, and he's leading the way.

    Sure he's probably a sexually harassing freak who made a trip or two to Epstein's island, but I can see the good and bad in humans and judge actions independently.

    Anyway, want to know the real conspiracy? There are two groups that are well funded and have methods of sending you a message every day. Two different information operation campaigns. You see how good it works on the lefties? Now find the other one and think about who it's working on. Doubt everything. Especially what you don't want to. Remember the media is mostly part of the profiting group. Here is the problem with capitalism that the left should be harping on (and the right, too). The system is rigged, but it's rigged for the "professional kleptocrats", to use Eric Weinstein's term. Go watch his interview with Glenn Beck.
    Last edited by dneal; November 24th, 2021 at 04:45 PM.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  19. #37
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Glenn Beck? Seriously?


  20. #38
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    So... getting back on topic...

    Screenshot_20211124-103015.png

    What actions (that don't require force) can the government take that could/would assuage the (reasonable) concerns that some have, for instance, about side effects of the vaccine? Not talking about death specifically.


    BTW: Wearing a mask makes sense, perhaps because I've been around mask-wearers, sick people keeping their cooties to themselves, long before covid-19. Seems neighborly, considerate. Hand-washing should go without saying. (Public bathrooms are kept cleaner, I've noticed.) Maintaining physical distance is a bonus to those of us with a slightly wider personal-space radius, haha.
    _____________
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  22. #39
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Glenn Beck? Seriously?
    Yep. Your tactic is to shove Joy Reid type diatribe down people's throats, wrongly thinking they'll see the "truth" of the rhetorical partisan bullshit you readily consume.

    Glenn is to the left of the Q-anon. Eric Weinstein is a (classic) liberal. Baby steps.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  23. #40
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix
    What actions (that don't require force) can the government take that could/would assuage the (reasonable) concerns that some have, for instance, about side effects of the vaccine? Not talking about death specifically.


    BTW: Wearing a mask makes sense, perhaps because I've been around mask-wearers, sick people keeping their cooties to themselves, long before covid-19. Seems neighborly, considerate. Hand-washing should go without saying. (Public bathrooms are kept cleaner, I've noticed.) Maintaining physical distance is a bonus to those of us with a slightly wider personal-space radius, haha.
    The problem seems to be that the less severe consequences (not-death) encourage one side to advocate for government control. Those that believe freedom is provided by government, rather than protected by government - not to mention the notion of freedom from government.

    Statistics are ok if the vaccine is "safe and effective", with only a statistically insignificant chance of side-effect or death, but statistics are not ok for a virus that has a statistically insignificant mortality rate. Then it's the "what if it's your loved one?" argument. Then it's plane-crash hyperbole as they total up global deaths. In short, it's hypocrisy.

    If a country is truly going to "mandate" a vaccine that has a (probably wrong) 8 in a million chance of death, the problem with "mandates" is more stark - hence this thread. "You want people to die" is the rhetorical argument against the anti-vaxxers (for whatever reason they have that position), and any other position regarding the pandemic that doesn't follow their script. Economic damage / lockdown strategy questions? "You want people to die!!!".

    In the case of a government mandate, the argument works the other way - and more clearly. Their hypocrisy is directly confronted. You see them try to wiggle out of it with false analogies, many of the same ones they use to justify government control; but now they must say they are ok with directly causing death. An ethical dilemma.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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