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Thread: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

  1. #41
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Your tactic is to shove Joy Reid type diatribe down people's throats, wrongly thinking they'll see the "truth" of the rhetorical partisan bullshit you readily consume.
    Don't know who Joy Reid is, sport. Nor Eric Weinstein. I do know Glenn Beck is a profiteering RWW pimp, a failed Rush Limbaugh.

    FYI I don't use partisan websites, etc. but simply keep track of mainstream news: the NY Times, The Guardian, etc. Which whackjobs like you consider partisan, no doubt, because they try to tell the truth.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Had to look up Joy Reid myself. And who EVER listened to Glenn Beck? Lol!

    Always verify any quotes he posts. In fact fact check everything.

  3. #43
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    You guys who seem to have formed a clear opinion of Glenn Beck didn't know who MSNBC's Joy Reid is? She took Chris Matthews' 7pm slot, replacing Hardball last year. MSNBC's primetime slot, but you never heard of her. Curious.

    Also out of curiosity, was Glenn Beck a "RWW pimp" (whatever that is...) when he was on CNN slamming Bush the Jr.? You weren't nodding sagely at his wisdom then? No need to answer.

    BTW, you're still missing the point of the Glenn Beck recommendation. The poster I recommended that to (who deleted the content of his post), is very right leaning (judging from the deleted content). Glenn Beck is a stepping stone back to center-right. Baby steps. Not the final destination.
    Be your own tenth man.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    I don't watch TV. I read.

    In terms of our sources, we have little in common.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    But bear in mind the purpose of these vaccine mandates: to "win the war on COVID" and other buzz-phrase formulations. It ignores that the virus has mutated, and likely will continue to. It ignores that the vaccine doesn't prevent contraction or transmission. It doesn't prevent death (in those 999,992 times it doesn't kill). It only improves odds.
    Improve odds, doesn't prevent death? That is a form of lexical semantics. The evidence, adjusted for confounding, shows that the number of deaths directly due to COVID-19 is lower in fully vaccinated people than in those without any vaccination. Vaccinations most certainly do prevent death from cause.

    And no, vaccination programs do not ignore mutations or transmissibility - that's the language used to undermine the simple fact that vaccinations are current best practice, not perfect practice. Until something better is invented/discovered, it's without a shadow of a doubt the best resource we have, and certainly a lot better than not having vaccines available. People who speak against it generally do so on the basis of it not being perfect. Expecting a perfect solution is profound indicator of a lack of understanding of life processes on Earth.


    Other than that I restate from an earlier posting that I fully believe in social responsibility, for organisations as well as individuals.
    I agree with every sentence here, EoC. And well-put!

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Is there anything more to say or to ask for on this topic? Part of the problem here is that these threads go on for too long (or are begun with toxic tones).

    So, the question was, if I understand it right, can a government ask of its citizenry a compulsory form of compliance that is meant to protect hundreds of thousands from death and serious disease (and the society from a large portion of the associated costs and burdens) but will also likely result in a statistically probable number of very few deaths from the corrective.

    To me, this is not much of a dilemma, and I say "yes." There is no need to fight, argue, etc, unless you want to (of course). I don't. The question is fair and reasonable. So can the discussion be, even if it is not a debate.

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    Chip (November 26th, 2021)

  8. #47
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Well said. Thanks.

    Much of the progress in public health over the last century has come from the discovery and application of vaccines: smallpox, polio, influenza, et many ceteras. What I find amazing is that anyone can imagine some dark, malignant design in an effort to save lives and prevent suffering. Or in the science that supports it.

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    Senior Member Cyril's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    They ((((Who!!!!!!)))) are mocking the humanity. Hollywood and the fiction culture is one of the base to create the Corvid cult and turn it into a new RELIGION.

    The new Variant "Up-grade booster software' is OMICRON AND HOW COME IT WAS already on a fiction cinema in the past????

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXEZ8X0zWY

    Any idiot would now see what is going on. Instead of arguing discussing for years It is time to wake up folks before it take down all of you first.
    Peace and love!!!!

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Well said. Thanks.

    Much of the progress in public health over the last century has come from the discovery and application of vaccines: smallpox, polio, influenza, et many ceteras. What I find amazing is that anyone can imagine some dark, malignant design in an effort to save lives and prevent suffering. Or in the science that supports it.
    For me the value of vaccines coinsides with my relationship with two seventy year olds who contracted polio in the early 1950's. One spent time in an "iron lung". This disease has portrayed their entire lives every minute of every day. Both became medical professionals with successful careers.

    I also remember taking the sugar cube vaccine at school in the 1960's. People were glad to get it even if the vaccine initally was flawed resulting the contracting the disease. Some died if I remember. That's horrible for the person and their parents. However, were the vaccine producers made to be an evil empire? What about the deaths from unfounded conspiracies so prevalent today? Perhaps as a species we are not as advanced as once thought.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Hmmm. It couldn't be simpler really.
    What right does the anti-vaxxer have to threaten the life of my daughter.

  12. #51
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    Any idiot would now see what is going on.
    Which qualifies you to explain it to the rest of us.

    (Might help to use spell and grammar check).

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by joolstacho View Post
    Hmmm. It couldn't be simpler really.
    What right does the anti-vaxxer have to threaten the life of my daughter.
    How would an "anti-vaxxer" threaten your daughter's life? If she's of age she can access reliable information and if not, it's up to you.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Apparently 1000 people per day dying from COVID-19 in the US.

  15. #54
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Does the vaccine prevent you from contracting COVID? Does it prevent you from transmitting it? If a vaccinated person can also threaten the life of one's daughter... well, you see the problem.

    That's not the topic though. A government mandating 100% vaccination, in the context of Utilitarian ethical theory, is. If it is truly mandated, with no exceptions (otherwise it's not really a mandate) a specific amount of deaths will occur. The government is making its citizens participate in something that will assuredly kill some of them. They have no choice but to play a government-mandated lottery of death. Could a mandatory vaccine threaten the life of one's daughter?

    Rhetoric doesn't get you out of the dilemma.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    Rhetoric doesn't get you out of the dilemma.
    Nor do all your questions. Making a decision resolves the dilemma. Are you unable to chose? Is this a difficult decision for you, or are you saying that the decision is impossible (an impasse)? Or is this whole thread a rhetorical exercise in purposefully stalling? I don't understand your purpose.

  17. #56
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    In February, the Alpine republic [Austria] will join Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Indonesia in mandating Covid-19 vaccination for all adults. In the West, only the Vatican, with roughly 800 residents, has so far imposed such a mandate.
    WSJ Article

    One study estimates the mortality rate for the vaccine is roughly 8 per million. The population of Austria is roughly 9 million. Back of the napkin math comes up with 72. There's lots of room for argument with that calculation and the study's estimate, but the specific number isn't that important.

    What is important that there will certainly be some citizen deaths caused directly by their government. Have we given this right to them? Is there a debt or obligation incurred? How do you pay? What currency will compensate a family for a love one lost. Spouse, parent, sibling, child?

    This is Utilitarianism. The "greatest happiness" principle, for realz. Some people will be condemned to death by their government. They just don't know who it is yet. A mandatory lottery of death, of sorts. All must play, orders the elected officials.

    Yes, the other side of the scale is whatever it is. Anti-vaxxers dying or spreading (but both of those are also possible with/from the vaccinated). Fine, do the math (that's utilitarianism). But the reality remains that there will be death on the other side - due to a direct decree from one's government. Is that simply an obligation owed by the individual to society? Is that being free? Does one's intrinsic value weigh more heavily? Every man for himself, come what may?

    Again, none of this is hypothetical. Real world. Real countries. Real people.
    The article does not raise an issue of utilitarian ethics.

    I read the article. It reports on people in elder care homes and some younger people who were not in care. Some died after being vaccinated, but the article does not say that they died because they were vaccinated. It pays special attention to people over 85, and it lists about two dozen conditions they had. Also, notice that the article depends on data through January 8, 2021, by which time few people had been vaccinated.

    Adults aged 85 years and over accounted for half of the reported deaths (N = 25, 45.5%). Those vaccinated at long-term care facilities were more likely to be older and females than at other locations. A total of 14 individuals (25.5%) died on the same day and 45 individuals (81.8%) died within 1 week following vaccination. Top reported comorbidities associated with deaths were hypertension, dementia, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), diabetes, and heart failure (Table 2). Dementia was more likely to be associated with deaths at long-term care facilities. Top medications associated with deaths were pain relievers, fever reducers, and antihypertensives.
    The authors conclude:

    COVID-19 vaccine is safe in younger groups. The majority of the reported deaths were in people aged 85 and older and vaccinated at long-term care facilities; these patients are frail older people with serious underlying health conditions such as dementia, hypertension, heart failure, COPD, diabetes, anemia, and fall. In addition, these vulnerable patients are polypharmacy users. Certain vaccine-disease and vaccine-drug interactions might have contributed to or have worsened health outcomes of those already vulnerable populations. It is essential to monitor the allergic reactions following the vaccination that mainly occur within a short period of time for preventable risks (5). However, the mortality rate of 53.4 per million following COVID-19 vaccination among long-term care facility residents during the study period was much lower compared to the 2019 monthly all-cause mortality rate of 0.3% among adults aged 65 years or older (6), or the 30-day all-cause mortality rate of 21.5% among US nursing home residents with COVID-19 (7). Therefore, our data suggest that the benefits of COVID-19 vaccines far outweigh the potential risks in older frail populations (e.g., long-term care facilities), and our findings do not support actions to exclude older adults from being vaccinated as the Norwegian government did. Continued monitoring of COVID-19 vaccination among the older population, particularly those with comorbidities and medications reported in this study, however, is warranted.
    That is, research should continue in case there might be something in one of the vaccines that could be harmful to the frail elderly, but the number of deaths, from all causes, n elder-care homes after Covid vaccines is less than the number of deaths in the same period in 2019. The article does not talk about the social ethics of mandating Covid vaccinations for every human being in a country. Note this sentence in the conclusion: "Therefore, our data suggest that the benefits of COVID-19 vaccines far outweigh the potential risks in older frail populations (e.g., long-term care facilities), and our findings do not support actions to exclude older adults from being vaccinated as the Norwegian government did".

    Direct link to the study mentioned in the original post: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8160119/
    Last edited by welch; November 30th, 2021 at 09:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    The statement was could an anti-vaxxer threaten you daughter. I'll wait for the member to respond.

    As to dilemmas, an unvaccinatied person could be a threat to others, particularly children who have not been able to receive the vaccine. With 1000 people per day dying, I'd think getting a free vaccine is the least amount of effort one could provide for themselves and the people they're around.

    I agree, if the decision is a difficult one, you have to say why. I know you've promoted Ivermectrin with your posts, so, what's the draw in using an improven drug.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by welch
    The article does not raise an issue of utilitarian ethics.

    I read the article. It reports on people in elder care homes... etc
    I cited the portion of the article I was referring to (Austria joining other countries in mandating vaccination), and I cited the link.

    Then, I explained how that creates an ethical dilemma based on the utilitarian theory.

    So you have used semantics to create a quite lengthy straw man to argue against a point no one made.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    Rhetoric doesn't get you out of the dilemma.
    Nor do all your questions. Making a decision resolves the dilemma. Are you unable to chose? Is this a difficult decision for you, or are you saying that the decision is impossible (an impasse)? Or is this whole thread a rhetorical exercise in purposefully stalling? I don't understand your purpose.
    I thought you bowed out of this thread (see post #15).

    I'm becoming hesitant to bother responding to you, because you seem to not be interested in anything other than just saying whatever you want to get off your chest at the moment. You ask a question, I answer, and you're no longer interested... until you are again.
    Be your own tenth man.

  21. #60
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    The statement was could an anti-vaxxer threaten you daughter. I'll wait for the member to respond.

    As to dilemmas, an unvaccinatied person could be a threat to others, particularly children who have not been able to receive the vaccine. With 1000 people per day dying, I'd think getting a free vaccine is the least amount of effort one could provide for themselves and the people they're around.

    I agree, if the decision is a difficult one, you have to say why. I know you've promoted Ivermectrin with your posts, so, what's the draw in using an improven drug.
    Chuck, the dilemma is government mandates when there is a certainty of it causing death.

    An unvaccinated person could be a threat. So could a drunk driver. That's not the point of the OP.

    Ivermectin is also not the point, so I don't know why you've introduced that. If you would like to discuss ivermectin, feel free to post a new thread or comment in one of many where it is raised in the OP. "Interesting Video" is one, off the top of my head.
    Be your own tenth man.

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