Vaccine mandate ethical dilemma

[welch]

dneal, your study does NOT say that the vaccines killed anyone. Therefore you have no basis for using it to claim that vaccines will kill people and then using that claim as ground for arguing that a vaccine mandate is an example of utilitarianiam.

[dneal]

Cool. What's the mortality rate of covid vaccination, per the study?

[Chuck Naill]

Let says that’s ten die for every million who receive the only proven preventative measure, would that be enough?

Apparently, 1.1 million received the vaccine in the US yesterday. People are beginning to accept the risk.

Do generals accept that 10 out of million soldiers killed would be acceptable?

[dneal]

Let says that’s ten die for every million who receive the only proven preventative measure, would that be enough?

Apparently, 1.1 million received the vaccine in the US yesterday. People are beginning to accept the risk.

Do generals accept that 10 out of million soldiers killed would be acceptable?

Thank you Chuck. That is the point, not the specific number.

I suspect that a general would find that more than acceptable, and even favorable (assuming the ratio in your hypothetical is the result of a successful battle, campaign or war).

Now let me ask a question in return:

Is the vaccine the only proven preventative measure? By "proven", to what level of effectiveness? and by "preventative", preventing what?

[Chuck Naill]

Let says that’s ten die for every million who receive the only proven preventative measure, would that be enough?

Apparently, 1.1 million received the vaccine in the US yesterday. People are beginning to accept the risk.

Do generals accept that 10 out of million soldiers killed would be acceptable?

Thank you Chuck. That is the point, not the specific number.

I suspect that a general would find that more than acceptable, and even favorable (assuming the ratio in your hypothetical is the result of a successful battle, campaign or war).

Now let me ask a question in return:

Is the vaccine the only proven preventative measure?

No. Staying far enough apart to prevent spread of an aerosol and masking is a proven measure.

[dneal]

Sorry, I edited on you; but I'll just make the argument for clarity.

If the vaccine were 100% proven to prevent death from COVID, and COVID was 100% lethal to every human; I would tend to agree with mandatory vaccination to prevent the spread.

However, neither of those are the case.

[Chuck Naill]

Sorry, I edited on you; but I'll just make the argument for clarity.

If the vaccine were 100% proven to prevent death from COVID, and COVID was 100% lethal to every human; I would tend to agree with mandatory vaccination to prevent the spread.

However, neither of those are the case.

Another variable to consider, 800k US citizens have died. Billions of dollars lost to the economy and millions out of work.

A strategy to prevent further deaths and economic loss would be to consider a less than 100 percent proven prevention program which includes masks and distance.

A poorer strategy would be wait and see while depending on monoclonal antibodies, etc. while risking overpowering the health care facilities.

[welch]

dneal, you carelessly misread your study only to pick out a sentence from the abstract. Your study never says that a Covid vaccine caused people to die. You keep pushing your misreading as an excuse to discuss a non-problem.

[Chuck Naill]

My publix radio includes Science Friday featuring Ralph Nader today. He related vaccines and seat belts. He said the government didn’t empathize “contagion” enough. He said some don’t trust pharma and other have a fear of needles .

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

[Chuck Naill]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

Mortality amount long term care would be expected to be greater than general population.

[dneal]

dneal, you carelessly misread your study only to pick out a sentence from the abstract. Your study never says that a Covid vaccine caused people to die. You keep pushing your misreading as an excuse to discuss a non-problem.

Feel free to move on to a different thread absent of “non-problems”. This one has you stuck in a loop that apparently can’t be debugged.

[dneal]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

Ok, but that’s still not the point of the thread.

[Chuck Naill]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

Ok, but that’s still not the point of the thread.

It’s a reasonable response, @dneal.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

Ok, but that’s still not the point of the thread.

No, it's not the point of the thread, but it is a response to your request for the numbers. So it satisfies on that part.

I think I stated my position on the ethics earlier in the thread.

[dneal]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

Ok, but that’s still not the point of the thread.

No, it's not the point of the thread, but it is a response to your request for the numbers. So it satisfies on that part.

I think I stated my position on the ethics earlier in the thread.

Oh, the request for numbers was for the guy who could only assert what the study “didn’t say”.

[Chuck Naill]

Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population in the study was 0.0008%
Mortality rate among vaccinated members of the population NOT in the study but in long-term care elsewhere was 0.005%

While it was not explicitly stated in the published study I have to conclude that this represents additional risk because it is so much lower than the existing risk of death for the unvaccinated population in long-term care.


That's what the study says, no weaseling here.

Ok, but that’s still not the point of the thread.

No, it's not the point of the thread, but it is a response to your request for the numbers. So it satisfies on that part.

I think I stated my position on the ethics earlier in the thread.

Oh, the request for numbers was for the guy who could only assert what the study “didn’t say”.

I don't get it @dneal. You say you want a discussion and all you do is drama. If you feel your interpretation is correct, your're going about it the wrong way.

[dneal]

Chuck - I would like to discuss the topic in my OP. One poster has made a great effort to derail the topic with a straw man. I've clarified twice what the thesis is, and laid out the position. I'm done with the pedantry and disingenuous argument. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I doubt it. That poster will first have to plainly state what he understands the mortality rate of covid vaccination to be (according to the study). No drama, just an impasse.

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck - I would like to discuss the topic in my OP. One poster has made a great effort to derail the topic with a straw man. I've clarified twice what the thesis is, and laid out the position. I'm done with the pedantry and disingenuous argument. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I doubt it. That poster will first have to plainly state what he understands the mortality rate of covid vaccination to be (according to the study). No drama, just an impasse.

I went back and read the abstract. I do not access to the full study. I pulled this information.
"As of January 8, 2021, 55 deaths were reported, and the mortality rate of COVID-19 vaccination was 8.2 per million population. A total of 37 deaths were reported among long-term care facility residents, and the mortality rate was 53.4 per million population. Top reported comorbidities associated with deaths included hypertension, dementia, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), diabetes, and heart failure. In addition, dementia was more likely to be associated with deaths vaccinated at long-term care facilities than at other locations."

I noticed again the VAERS reporting system was used. I think we've discussed this system being subjective before, but even if accurate, the patients cited were at long term care facilities with the typical co-morbidities we'd expect with dementa being more likely to be associated with vaccine death which should not be a surprise.

The conclusion stated the researcher felt the benefits outweighed the risks. You had asked and I responded did I feel vaccine mandates should be imposed and I think by reading the conclusion on the abstract you posted, they are practical and necessary. That said, if you read the Moderna Vaccine information on the CDC website you will have access to precautions for certain groups. So, someone would be able to opt out if at risk, which would reduce potential harm by any mandate.

All this said, I am not convinced the reason you are not chosing to recieve the vaccine is because you are afraid of dying. Is this a valid appraisal?

[dneal]

Chuck,

- I know in the results section the authors estimate the mortality rate at 8.2 per million. welch keeps insisting that I need to read the paper, suggesting that it does not say that. Well, it doesn't if you ignore the part that does (namely, the results). So I am simply giving him the opportunity to go on the record on what he thinks the paper says. Zero? 16 per million? I don't really care what the number is. He hasn't done it so far. The point isn't an accurate number, which I note in the OP, as well as the fact that the number is debatable.

I am not afraid of dying. Don't want to, but I'm not afraid of it. I could have died in Iraq or Afghanistan on several occasions, but particularly when the suicide bomber detonated in the room next to me, during a tour in Afghanistan. My choice on vaccination is a long discussion on risk assessment, which I'm not inclined to engage in here. It would just lead to the internet hyenas shouting "YOU'RE WRONG!!!" in some fashion. Maybe I am, but maybe I'm not. My body, my choice; and all that...