Page 4 of 18 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 357

Thread: The pivot begins...

  1. #61
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    And from The Atlantic Why More Americans Are Saying They’re ‘Vaxxed and Done’

    To understand how ideologically scrambling the Omicron wave has been, consider this: Some 2022 Democrats are sounding like 2020 Republicans. In spring 2020, many Republicans, including President Donald Trump, insisted that COVID was hardly worse than the flu; that its fatality risk was comparable to an everyday activity, like driving in a car; and that an obsessive focus on cases wouldn’t give an accurate picture of what was going on in the pandemic.

    In the current Omicron wave, these Republican talking points seem to have mostly come true—for most vaccinated non-senior adults, who are disproportionately Democrats.

    But Democratic talking points about the severity of COVID and the need for commensurate caution remain valid and not only for the sick and elderly. Ironically, they are especially true for the unvaccinated—a disproportionately Republican group that has seen their hospitalization rates soar this winter to all-time highs. About 9,000 Americans are dying of COVID every week. Preliminary state data suggest that more than 90 percent of today’s deaths are still among unvaccinated people. This year, COVID is on pace to kill more than 300,000 unvaccinated people who would, quite likely, avoid death by getting two or three shots.

    The messiness of Omicron data—record-high cases! but much milder illness!—has deepened our COVID Rashomon, in which different communities are telling themselves different stories about what’s going on, and coming to different conclusions about how to lead their lives. That’s true even within populations that, a year ago, were united in their desire to take the pandemic seriously and were outraged by those who refused to do so.

    A virus that seems both pervasive and mild offers an opening to people who are, let’s call them, “vaxxed and done.” The attitude of the VADs is this:

    For more than a year, I did everything that public-health authorities told me to do. I wore masks. I canceled vacations. I made sacrifices. I got vaccinated. I got boosted. I’m happy to get boosted again. But this virus doesn’t stop. Year over year, the infections don’t decrease. Instead, virulence for people like me is decreasing, either because the virus is changing, or because of growing population immunity, or both. Americans should stop pointlessly guilting themselves about all these cases. In the past week, daily confirmed COVID cases per capita were higher than the U.S. in Ireland, Greece, Iceland, Denmark, France, the U.K., Spain, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, and even Australia, one of the most COVID-cautious countries in the world. As the coronavirus continues its unstoppable march toward endemicity, our attitude toward the virus should follow a similar path toward stoicism. COVID is becoming something like the seasonal flu for most people who keep up with their shots, so I’m prepared to treat this like I’ve treated the flu: by basically not worrying about it and living my life normally.

    It’s hard to put a number on how many people are in this group, but we have some hard data to prove that their ranks are growing. This past December, airports processed twice as many travelers compared with the same period in 2020, despite many flights being canceled. On several days, TSA-checkpoint numbers exceeded their totals from pre-pandemic 2019. This is not the picture of a country that is hunkering down for Omicron. It is the limited snapshot of a mostly vaccinated population with millions of people who are eager to move on.

    I have a lot of sympathy for this group’s case, especially as it relates to schools. The risk of COVID to vaccinated teachers and even unvaccinated students seems lower than we initially thought. Meanwhile, the costs of remote schooling seem higher than we feared. The White House and Education Secretary Miguel Cardona have come out strongly in support of keeping schools open. Other Democratic leaders, like Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, are fighting reluctant teachers to keep school in person. Even among pro-vaccine Americans, a growing number of people seem to be saying they are done with remote school as a baseline COVID policy.

    But there is an opposing group. Let’s call them the “vaxxed and cautious.” Here’s my best summary of their perspective:

    Why on earth would we suddenly relax measures now, during the largest statistical wave of COVID ever recorded in the U.S.? We shouldn’t treat Omicron like any old seasonal flu, because it’s not like any old seasonal flu. It’s likely deadlier for those without immunity and almost certainly several times more transmissible for everybody else. We have no idea what the effects of Omicron on long COVID will be, but evidence of lingering symptoms should make us wary of just letting tens of millions of people get needlessly infected. Moreover, the health-care system is already worn down and at risk of being overloaded. Record-high caseloads are societally debilitating, creating long chains of infections that are bound to reach some immunocompromised people and the elderly, thus causing needless death. For all these reasons, we should take individual measures to throttle the spread of this virus.

    If you feel a bit torn between these ideologies, I understand. I’m a bit torn myself.

    In the past few weeks, several people have told me that they feel extremely safe personally but remain worried about passing along the virus to vulnerable people in their networks. So what should they do? This is not a problem with an easy answer, because the gap between individual risk and societal risk in this pandemic has never been wider. The risk of death from Omicron for boosted, healthy adults under 50 seems to be somewhere between that of riding a bike and going on an airplane. In isolation, this statistic makes the vaxxed-and-done perspective a no-brainer: Nobody consults the CDC website to decide if it’s safe to bike down the street.

    But a pandemic is more than the sum of individual healthy-adult experiences. Viruses are societal multiplication problems. When a double-digit share of a public-school system comes down with Omicron, school is out, and the effects ripple through local families. When a double-digit share of a medical system comes down with Omicron, doctor and nurse availability plummets, and the effect ripples through the hospital. With workers out across industries, entire cities stop functioning. In Washington, D.C., last week, some schools had to delay opening not because of the virus but because snowplows couldn’t make the roads safe enough to get there—too many snowplow drivers were out sick.

    My synthesis view is that we should start with the obvious. If I were COVID czar, my rules for early 2022 would be to try desperately to keep schools open and in person, follow through on vaccine mandates for nursing homes, distribute free rapid tests to allow people to identify their own infectiousness when they mix households with vulnerable people, and expand vaccine PSA programs, since the vaccines seem by far the most effective intervention against the virus. If we’re lucky, on the other side of this Omicron wave, “vaccinated and done” won’t be one of many viewpoints in an unfolding COVID Rashomon. It will be something like reality.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  2. #62
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    From your sourced article, "since the vaccines seem by far the most effective intervention against the virus". Why aren't you vaccinated?

  3. #63
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    From your cite: "seem".

    But that's not the point of the article, nor the thread.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  4. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    From your cite: "seem".

    But that's not the point of the article, nor the thread.
    It was the author's concluding comments, "My synthesis view is that we should start with the obvious."

    Reminds me of the comments regarding Thomas Sowell. If you can't find someone to agree, just make something up.

  5. #65
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    You’re the expert on making things up. Commonly understood to be: a liar. Or snake oil salesman / pharma rep.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  6. #66
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    You are tiresome @dneal, but I do enjoy reading your nonsense and inaccuracies. It tells me how the Trumpians/radicalized right think. Please continue to post.

  7. #67
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Since you don’t care about little girls, I suppose your abortion stance will change once Pfizer makes an abortion drug? Good for your profit, after all.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Your very post recommended vaccines.

  9. #69
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Yes Chuck, it does. You miss the larger point (on his and many other things). I’ll add that to the list. Sowell, sarcasm, quotes, and “the point”.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  10. #70
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Yes Chuck, it does. You miss the larger point (on his and many other things). I’ll add that to the list. Sowell, sarcasm, quotes, and “the point”.
    It was the person's summation which would be the "larger point".

  11. #71
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    "The Pivot Begins" is the larger point. You'll be pivoting too. It's just a matter of time.

    Maybe not though, every 6 month old that gets stuck is money in your pocket. I see why you're "against" abortion. Bad for the bottom line.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  12. #72
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    You always have an excuse. You were just kidding and I don't understand it. You quote Sowell out of context, and you say many children are being harmed by vaccines. What else will be next?

  13. #73
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    I didn't quote Sowell out of context. Simply another example of your poor reading comprehension. I didn't say many children were harmed by vaccines. Yet another.

    Maybe it's not reading comprehension. Maybe it's capability. Maybe it's covid fog. Maybe it's age. Maybe you're just a liar.

    Should I start a new thread on something so you can disrupt it too with your off-topic, inane ramblings?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  14. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,735
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 608 Times in 444 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Setting up to complain if the Democrats lose a number of Congressional seats in the mid-terms:

    "Oh, yeah, I think it could easily be illegitimate ... The increase in the prospect of being illegitimate is in proportion to not being able to get these reforms passed."
    -Biden, though articulating the phrase after the elipse is impressive.

  15. #75
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Back on topic…

    This article was released today.

    The Atlantic: LET’S DECLARE A PANDEMIC AMNESTY

    We need to forgive one another for what we did and said when we were in the dark about COVID.

    In April 2020, with nothing else to do, my family took an enormous number of hikes. We all wore cloth masks that I had made myself. We had a family hand signal, which the person in the front would use if someone was approaching on the trail and we needed to put on our masks.* Once, when another child got too close to my then-4-year-old son on a bridge, he yelled at her “SOCIAL DISTANCING!”

    These precautions were totally misguided. In April 2020, no one got the coronavirus from passing someone else hiking. Outdoor transmission was vanishingly rare. Our cloth masks made out of old bandanas wouldn’t have done anything, anyway. But the thing is: We didn’t know.

    I have been reflecting on this lack of knowledge thanks to a class I’m co-teaching at Brown University on COVID. We’ve spent several lectures reliving the first year of the pandemic, discussing the many important choices we had to make under conditions of tremendous uncertainty.

    Some of these choices turned out better than others. To take an example close to my own work, there is an emerging (if not universal) consensus that schools in the U.S. were closed for too long: The health risks of in-school spread were relatively low, whereas the costs to students’ well-being and educational progress were high. The latest figures on learning loss are alarming.* But in spring and summer 2020, we had only glimmers of information. Reasonable people—people who cared about children and teachers—advocated on both sides of the reopening debate.

    Another example: When the vaccines came out, we lacked definitive data on the relative efficacies of the Johnson & Johnson shot versus the mRNA options from Pfizer and Moderna. The mRNA vaccines have won out. But at the time, many people in public health were either neutral or expressed a J&J preference. This misstep wasn’t nefarious. It was the result of uncertainty.

    Obviously some people intended to mislead and made wildly irresponsible claims. Remember when the public-health community had to spend a lot of time and resources urging Americans not to inject themselves with bleach? That was bad. Misinformation was, and remains, a huge problem. But most errors were made by people who were working in earnest for the good of society.

    Given the amount of uncertainty, almost every position was taken on every topic. And on every topic, someone was eventually proved right, and someone else was proved wrong. In some instances, the right people were right for the wrong reasons. In other instances, they had a prescient understanding of the available information.

    The people who got it right, for whatever reason, may want to gloat. Those who got it wrong, for whatever reason, may feel defensive and retrench into a position that doesn’t accord with the facts. All of this gloating and defensiveness continues to gobble up a lot of social energy and to drive the culture wars, especially on the internet. These discussions are heated, unpleasant and, ultimately, unproductive. In the face of so much uncertainty, getting something right had a hefty element of luck. And, similarly, getting something wrong wasn’t a moral failing. Treating pandemic choices as a scorecard on which some people racked up more points than others is preventing us from moving forward.

    We have to put these fights aside and declare a pandemic amnesty. We can leave out the willful purveyors of actual misinformation while forgiving the hard calls that people had no choice but to make with imperfect knowledge. Los Angeles County closed its beaches in summer 2020. Ex post facto, this makes no more sense than my family’s masked hiking trips. But we need to learn from our mistakes and then let them go. We need to forgive the attacks, too. Because I thought schools should reopen and argued that kids as a group were not at high risk, I was called a “teacher killer” and a “génocidaire.” It wasn’t pleasant, but feelings were high. And I certainly don’t need to dissect and rehash that time for the rest of my days.

    Moving on is crucial now, because the pandemic created many problems that we still need to solve.

    Student test scores have shown historic declines, more so in math than in reading, and more so for students who were disadvantaged at the start. We need to collect data, experiment, and invest. Is high-dosage tutoring more or less cost-effective than extended school years? Why have some states recovered faster than others? We should focus on questions like these, because answering them is how we will help our children recover.

    Many people have neglected their health care over the past several years. Notably, routine vaccination rates for children (for measles, pertussis, etc.) are way down. Rather than debating the role that messaging about COVID vaccines had in this decline, we need to put all our energy into bringing these rates back up. Pediatricians and public-health officials will need to work together on community outreach, and politicians will need to consider school mandates.

    The standard saying is that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. But dwelling on the mistakes of history can lead to a repetitive doom loop as well. Let’s acknowledge that we made complicated choices in the face of deep uncertainty, and then try to work together to build back and move forward.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  16. #76
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    I am the sort that would rather be prepared than assume I won’t need. This is what most of us did between 2020-2022.

    As I told you, If you choose not to prepare yourself, don’t ask others to risk their well being. That said, I don’t need to provide you with amnesty since I’ve never held a grudge, just reminded you where you are wrong with your posts. If I had it to do over, I wouldn’t change a thing. I’d still follow the science an evidence where it led. I never vilified Fauci.

    Masks and distancing made since if you listened to Michael Osterholm as I did around April 2020.

    I got my first dose on January 6, 2021.

    I got omicron from the children last Spring.

    I got another booster when they returned to school after Summer break.

  17. #77
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    More deflection.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  18. #78
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    You’re a confounding person. What was or is your intent is posting?

    It appears to be some odd self vindication, for which, the Atlantic articles cannot support.

    Are you seeking amnesty?

  19. #79
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks
    2,402
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    I'm sure I am confounding to one who has bought completely into a narrative.

    I need no vindication nor "amnesty", because unlike you I have made no assertions about what works and what doesn't. I simply ask questions and present opposing points of view. I expressed concern with medicine being made partisan. I expressed concern with bureaucrats. I threw in a little hyperbole to poke you, like "Fauci lied, people died". That joke might turn out to be more true than we would like to believe.

    Would you like me to cite numerous posts of "wear a mask, get vaxxed, distance, etc..."? I know you will not find me posting "don't wear a mask, don't get vaxxed, don't distance, etc...". You'll still make your ludicrous claims though, with no evidence to support them. Knock yourself out.

    Anyway, I find narratives interesting, and the absolute "follow the science" nonsense as one of many narratives. In the initial post, I pointed out that it would work against the Democrats politically, and they would need to find a way out. The Atlantic, as a left-leaning outlet, is a good indicator. Now it's not just the politics. Most of that narrative, which you zealously shrieked repeatedly here, appears to be collapsing. Mask efficacy, vaccine efficacy, vaccine transmission, myocarditis, excess deaths, inexplicable deaths, etc... Should the "red wave" take place, it will be entertaining to watch the "eye doctor" and his fellows wield the congressional subpoena power and see what they dig up (and un-redact).

    The author recognizes this too, and attempts to excuse it all with "we didn't know". If that is the case, it might have something to do with shouting down "fringe" epidemiologists and any point of view not aligned with the narrative. It might have something to do with scientists offering differing opinions being labeled or censored.

    Cue your nonsensical meltdown in 3, 2, 1... I suspect we're in for a lot of that in the coming days.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  20. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,788
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: The pivot begins...

    Okay, I was correct, this thread is a passive aggressive attempt to self-vindicate by posting something that you think appears to discredit the people you vilified like Anthony Fauci for simply trying to do his job dealing with a virus that was killing millions. You ego is showing.

    Of course, we didn't know. When you don't know you take precautions that later you realize may not have been necessary. It is like thinking it is going to rain and taking an umbrella. You don't beat yourself up or criticize others for carrying one.

    If you know the virus is of an aerosolized nature, distancing and masking is common sense. What you don't do is make wearing a mask and distancing an act of disloyalty toward an ideology.

    If however, your sole purpose in posting is to say you were right after all, you failed. No one that knows anything would agree. You were either lucky or you hibernated.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •