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Thread: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

  1. #41
    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    The point isn't the risk; the point is the government's requirement that you take the risk.

    The government doesn't require anyone to drive or own a car. If you want to drive legally, you must pass a written exam and a driving test and buy insurance and, if you want to own a car, pay a registration fee.

    The government is not mandating that you drive a car.

    The government does not require anyone to go to McDonald's (or any restaurant), whether by car or other means. The government does not mandate church attendance.

    The other thread offers a kindv hypothetical (if considering it that way makes it easier to answer): If the government mandates an injection that can mitigate the current global health crisis BUT a few persons out of every million will die, collateral damage for the greater good, is it go mandate? Or no mandate?

    Let's use 8 out of a million for the sake of argument. What's the population of the USA? About 330 million. That's almost about 9/11 numbers of dead Americans (or 2,640 actually).

    Even one in a million is 330 dead.

    I'm just trying to get the focus on the mandate part of the equation and off the dancing around it.
    _____________
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Don't see the problem quite frankly. There is risk whether a mandate exists or not. The mandate lowers the risk both on an individual level and at the population level. Those for who having a vaccine (any vaccine really) is a potential risk due to their underlying medical conditions are usually afforded a wider latitude.

    <removed> incorrect data used.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; December 5th, 2021 at 09:05 PM.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    If you don’t see the problem, you should read ethernautrix’s post again. Read the first sentence. Read it again. Now read it once more.

    Also, the study literally estimates 8.2 per million in the results of the abstract. It’s verbatim. There is a screen shot of it with that portion lined in red.

    But in my op I noted the number is debatable. ethernautrix said “for the sake of argument”.

    Surely you can’t be this obtuse unless it is intentionally.
    Last edited by dneal; December 5th, 2021 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Added the number is debatable and enaut’s “sake of argument
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    My bad, was getting the numbers mixed up across threads. There was, however, no need for the snarky remark.

    Whatever, my position on the mandate remains the same: I see getting the vaccine as part of my civic duty. Yes, I appreciate that there was additional risk of death by taking the vaccine, but that risk was so, SO, insignificant that I was more than happy to assume it. People take much larger risks with their lives every day, but quibble over this one? I appreciate the idea that people may like to have a choice, yet in this case that choice is based on something so insignificant that it is no longer about the risk but the politics of choice only. There are better arenas to fight that one in.

  6. #45
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    You are still missing or ignoring the point. It’s about the mandate, not the risk.

    Read her first sentence again.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    No, I am not. Let me restate my opinion: I have no problem with government mandating that I take this risk. Mandate away!

  8. #47
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    You have made a choice for you, and are extrapolating to imposing that choice on others. You are ignoring the larger principle. Perhaps consider it in terms of something you object to, rather than something you agree with.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Actually, I am in favour of the mandate for everyone, in the context of pandemics and vaccines. That is because I strongly believe, based on past evidence of the efficacy of vaccines, that the vaccine is for the greater good. However, that does not mean that I give a blanket endorsement for govt mandates. Each must be evaluated on it's merits.


    You have made a choice for you, and are extrapolating to imposing that choice on others. You are ignoring the larger principle. Perhaps consider it in terms of something you object to, rather than something you agree with.
    I get that, but you have to also see that this cuts both ways, because those who oppose the mandate are imposing their choice on others too. Whose choice takes precedent? The individual, or all those who are affected by the individual's choice?


    No democratic society (or perhaps any society) offers 100% free choice for individuals.

    If you think I am not understanding your perspective then I would ask you to rephrase to explain, because if you just keep asking me to re-read stuff that you think I don't understand the outcome will remain the same (most likely).
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; December 6th, 2021 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    The point isn't the risk; the point is the government's requirement that you take the risk.

    The government doesn't require anyone to drive or own a car. If you want to drive legally, you must pass a written exam and a driving test and buy insurance and, if you want to own a car, pay a registration fee.

    The government is not mandating that you drive a car.

    The government does not require anyone to go to McDonald's (or any restaurant), whether by car or other means. The government does not mandate church attendance.

    The other thread offers a kindv hypothetical (if considering it that way makes it easier to answer): If the government mandates an injection that can mitigate the current global health crisis BUT a few persons out of every million will die, collateral damage for the greater good, is it go mandate? Or no mandate?

    Let's use 8 out of a million for the sake of argument. What's the population of the USA? About 330 million. That's almost about 9/11 numbers of dead Americans (or 2,640 actually).

    Even one in a million is 330 dead.

    I'm just trying to get the focus on the mandate part of the equation and off the dancing around it.
    True, but the government (state or federal) does have other mandates that have non-zero lethal results. The ones you wrote are not mandates, but there are others that are nearly universal (and note that the vaccine "mandate" is not universal, either).

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Sorry. I thought this was on the other thread. Nevermind. This is way off topic in this thread.

  12. #51
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    In late November, the CDC said:

    COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.

    - CDC recommends everyone ages 5 years and older get vaccinated as soon as possible to help protect against COVID-19 and the related, potentially severe complications that can occur.

    - Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.

    - CDC, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and other federal agencies are monitoring the safety of COVID-19 vaccines.

    - Adverse events described on this page have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)external icon.

    - VAERS accepts reports of any adverse event following vaccination.

    - Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.

    - Serious adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination are rare but may occur.

    - For public awareness and in the interest of transparency, CDC is providing timely updates on the following serious adverse events of interest:
    The CDC is reminding us not to fall for the mistake that "following means caused by", as in "On October 6, 1963, Sandy Koufax and the LA Dodgers beat the NY Yankees 2-1, sweeping the World Series four games to none. On November 22, 1963, JFK was killed. Therefore, the Dodgers caused Kennedy's killing". That's what the CDC means when it says "Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem."

    - Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and has occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United States. Anaphylaxis, a severe type of allergic reaction, can occur after any kind of vaccination. If it happens, healthcare providers can effectively and immediately treat the reaction. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis.

    - Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 Vaccination is rare. As of November 24, 2021, more than 16.4 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 54 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS. Women younger than 50 years old especially should be aware of the rare but increased risk of this adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen. Learn more about J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS.

    - To date, two confirmed cases of TTS following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Moderna) have been reported to VAERS after more than 437 million of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered in the United States. Based on available data, there is not an increased risk for TTS after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination.

    - CDC and FDA are monitoring reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) in people who have received the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine. GBS is a rare disorder where the body’s immune system damages nerve cells, causing muscle weakness and sometimes paralysis. Most people fully recover from GBS, but some have permanent nerve damage. After more than 16.4 million J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine doses administered, there have been around 268 preliminary reports of GBS identified in VAERS as of November 24, 2021. These cases have largely been reported about 2 weeks after vaccination and mostly in men, many 50 years and older. CDC will continue to monitor for and evaluate reports of GBS occurring after COVID-19 vaccination and will share more information as it becomes available.

    - Myocarditis and pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. As of November 24, 2021, VAERS has received 1,949 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis among people ages 30 and younger who received COVID-19 vaccine. Most cases have been reported after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), particularly in male adolescents and young adults. Through follow-up, including medical record reviews, CDC and FDA have confirmed 1,071 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis. CDC and its partners are investigating these reports to assess whether there is a relationship to COVID-19 vaccination. Learn more about COVID-19 vaccines and myocarditis.

    - Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 459 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through November 29, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 10,128 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. CDC clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records. A review of reports indicates a causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—that causes blood clots with low platelets—which has caused or directly contributed to six confirmed deaths.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html
    Last edited by welch; December 7th, 2021 at 10:56 AM. Reason: added link to the CDC report

  13. #52
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You can expand your understanding of a straw man from just fanciful characters, to more intelligent notions with Pinker’s book.
    I'll have a glance at Pinker. I know what 'straw man' means to pedants, grouches, and grumblers, thanks.

    Still, I love fanciful characters, being one myself.


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    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    First, thanks, EOC, for a straight answer.

    Second,
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    The point isn't the risk; the point is the government's requirement that you take the risk.

    The government doesn't require anyone to drive or own a car. If you want to drive legally, you must pass a written exam and a driving test and buy insurance and, if you want to own a car, pay a registration fee.

    The government is not mandating that you drive a car.

    The government does not require anyone to go to McDonald's (or any restaurant), whether by car or other means. The government does not mandate church attendance.

    The other thread offers a kindv hypothetical (if considering it that way makes it easier to answer): If the government mandates an injection that can mitigate the current global health crisis BUT a few persons out of every million will die, collateral damage for the greater good, is it go mandate? Or no mandate?

    Let's use 8 out of a million for the sake of argument. What's the population of the USA? About 330 million. That's almost about 9/11 numbers of dead Americans (or 2,640 actually).

    Even one in a million is 330 dead.

    I'm just trying to get the focus on the mandate part of the equation and off the dancing around it.
    True, but the government (state or federal) does have other mandates that have non-zero lethal results. The ones you wrote are not mandates, but there are others that are nearly universal (and note that the vaccine "mandate" is not universal, either).
    I hope you noticed that I was responding to Chip's examples, not presenting them.
    _____________
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    You can expand your understanding of a straw man from just fanciful characters, to more intelligent notions with Pinker’s book.
    I'll have a glance at Pinker. I know what 'straw man' means to pedants, grouches, and grumblers, thanks.

    Still, I love fanciful characters, being one myself.

    Yes, a legend in your own mind.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    @ethernautrix

    rogerroger

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    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Yes, a legend in your own mind.
    Why are so grim and nasty? A corpse has a greater sense of humor.

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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    The point isn't the risk; the point is the government's requirement that you take the risk.

    Even one in a million is 330 dead.
    Compared to 810,246 deaths from the virus. At present, deaths of unvaccinated people range between 12 and 15 times those of vaccinated ones.

    Stop dancing around the reality.

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  23. #58
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Yes, a legend in your own mind.
    Why are so grim and nasty? A corpse has a greater sense of humor.
    I'll entertain that as a serious question for a moment. While I can be nasty (usually proportional to the nastiness I receive), I'm hardly grim. I have a well developed sense of humor.

    I have grown tired of the tedious arguments from the left and right. The vapid chimp-screaming. The "internet hyenas". The tribalism.

    You have exhibited that consistently, and near continuously in this portion of the forum. Your comments are snide, and perhaps you believe this provides you a level of deniability (i.e.: hey, that was just an innocent remark); I think we both know better.

    Let's remove me from the equation though, since you and I clearly don't seem to get along. Your first response to ethernautrix of "stop dancing around the reality" is dismissive to her point. It's snide. It's rude. It's humorless.

    So perhaps you should pose your question to yourself. Why are you so grim and nasty?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  24. #59
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    A quick question: have you ever taken a course in statistics? Has ethernautrix?

    If you're tired of tedious arguments than you should remove yourself from the equation.

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  26. #60
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hacktivism: Good, Bad, Ugly?

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    The point isn't the risk; the point is the government's requirement that you take the risk.

    The government doesn't require anyone to drive or own a car. If you want to drive legally, you must pass a written exam and a driving test and buy insurance and, if you want to own a car, pay a registration fee.

    The government is not mandating that you drive a car.

    The government does not require anyone to go to McDonald's (or any restaurant), whether by car or other means. The government does not mandate church attendance.

    The other thread offers a kindv hypothetical (if considering it that way makes it easier to answer): If the government mandates an injection that can mitigate the current global health crisis BUT a few persons out of every million will die, collateral damage for the greater good, is it go mandate? Or no mandate?

    Let's use 8 out of a million for the sake of argument. What's the population of the USA? About 330 million. That's almost about 9/11 numbers of dead Americans (or 2,640 actually).

    Even one in a million is 330 dead.

    I'm just trying to get the focus on the mandate part of the equation and off the dancing around it.
    You can pose a thought-experiment, which is what dneal seems to have done in his thread. The thought experiment has bite when it is built around a story about Covid19 and anti-Covid vaccines, but it means a lot less when framed as the Trolley Problem, which is a well-known problem in ethics. Less bite, though, if removed from Covid and governments. Agreed?

    Less bite, as well, if we work with the six deaths out of 16.4 million who received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The CDC thinks that J&J was partly or completely responsible for those six deaths. That is one death for every 2.7 million J&J doses. If everyone in the US had been given J&J, that would be about 120 dead. About ten times that number -- 1,243 -- die every day from Covid. What then?

    If someone wants to have a thought experiment, like Trolley, in which they are forced to choose between letting one person die and 2.7 million live, that's fine. However, dneal's thought experiment has nothing to do with Covid, anti-Covid vaccines, or governments. What is your choice?

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