I understand not wanting to have this drift. Your quotation doesn't mention a soul nor say if other creatures have a soul. It doesn't address when a human becomes a human, either.
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Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
I understand not wanting to have this drift. Your quotation doesn't mention a soul nor say if other creatures have a soul. It doesn't address when a human becomes a human, either.
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M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
I take soul and spirit to be synonymous in Ecc 11:5.
Also the Bible says God knows people before conception. “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you
Lloyd (May 11th, 2022)
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
And that’s why we have a hard time compromising on gestational age.
I can compromise on life threatening medical issues but they are truly limited and there is a way to handle those in good faith.
Lloyd (May 11th, 2022)
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Does the Bible state if everything formed in the womb has a spirit? Could some (stillborns) have never had a spirit even of, at one point, it showed signs of life?
I know it's outside of the topic, but does the Bible say if God did or didn't know the other creatures before they were conceived? Once again, I'm not trying to mock you nor your religion, I'm sincerely curious what your Bible states to fully convince yourself of your thought on this topic.
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Last edited by Lloyd; May 11th, 2022 at 10:47 PM.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
You wouldn’t know if it lessens unpleasantries.Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds
EMT students work on cadavers.
The point is to abort a living fetus and let it die in front of your eyes, as with the staff who served Kermit Gosnell, MD.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
There is an account of King David’s child dying 7 days post birth. He had fasted and prayed for God to allow the child to live. When the child died his response was there was no longer any reason to fast because the child is not coming back, but that later he, David, would go to him. So, clearly David considered his soul to be in a place where David would be with the child.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
That's not clear to me in your summary.There is an account of King David’s child dying 7 days post birth. He had fasted and prayed for God to allow the child to live. When the child died his response was there was no longer any reason to fast because the child is not coming back, but that later he, David, would go to him. So, clearly David considered his soul to be in a place where David would be with the child.
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M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
It talks about Him knowing people before they were formed but no specifics how the spirit is applied to and away from the physical body (at least that I recall).
There are a few instances of God knowing or ordaining/predestined animals and plants. For example: the fish that swallowed Jonah.
It also talks about Gods continued provision for animals by giving them breath, shelter and food (that’s probably why the birds sing His praise continually).
Lloyd (May 12th, 2022)
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
I tend to think every living being has a soul.
That said, my twins born at 27 weeks continue to exhibit the same soul, which I think of as their personality characteristics. It was just that at 27 weeks it was not as developed.
I’m not offering this as proof to anyone, but it did impact me significantly.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
It sounds like your Bible (remember, I was only taught the Old testament, and I don't believe it anymore) doesn't help in the abortion debate. If not all life started in the womb has a soul, perhaps human is right in aborting certain ones. Does the Bible give human the right to kill other human in times of war (what justifications for war are granted man) of in issuing a death penalty to another human?
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M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. My understanding of scripture both explicitly and implicitly is that all humans have souls (image bearers) which cannot be separated after conception or before death.
Yes biblically there are times when killing is permitted or even commanded.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
I don’t understand your concern. What’s evidence you have a soul? What’s a soul?
Are you asking if the 22 week fetus that Gosnell snipped their spinal cord has what you say you have?
Do you think something magic occurs immediately or soon after delivery?
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
What occurs upon delivery is the drawing of breath. Pneuma (πνεῦμα) is an ancient Greek word for "breath", and in a religious context for "spirit" or "soul". It has various technical meanings for medical writers and philosophers of classical antiquity, particularly in regard to physiology, and is also used in Greek translations of ruach רוח in the Hebrew Bible, and in the Greek New Testament.
In classical philosophy, it is distinguishable from psyche (ψυχή), which originally meant "breath of life", but is regularly translated as "spirit" or most often "soul."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma
That is, the classical definition of a soul depends on the drawing of breath, taking in the air of the world. Before this, the flesh is only flesh, not possessed of a soul.
I think the Greeks had it right and the fanatical Catholics and fetus people have it wrong.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Your understanding is that all humans have souls by conception. Is this clear in the Bible or your interpretation?
Can you explain how the Bible gives humans the right to execute an imprisoned murderer versus only trying to rehabilitate them? Does it give humans the right to some type of self-judging system to determine who broke a law, sometimes a law that isn't mentioned in the Bible?
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M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
The word SOUL I'm using was Bold's choice.I don’t understand your concern. What’s evidence you have a soul? What’s a soul?
Are you asking if the 22 week fetus that Gosnell snipped their spinal cord has what you say you have?
Do you think something magic occurs immediately or soon after delivery?
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
I don’t think most people, religious or not think breath and soul are the same.What occurs upon delivery is the drawing of breath. Pneuma (πνεῦμα) is an ancient Greek word for "breath", and in a religious context for "spirit" or "soul". It has various technical meanings for medical writers and philosophers of classical antiquity, particularly in regard to physiology, and is also used in Greek translations of ruach רוח in the Hebrew Bible, and in the Greek New Testament.
In classical philosophy, it is distinguishable from psyche (ψυχή), which originally meant "breath of life", but is regularly translated as "spirit" or most often "soul."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma
That is, the classical definition of a soul depends on the drawing of breath, taking in the air of the world. Before this, the flesh is only flesh, not possessed of a soul.
I think the Greeks had it right and the fanatical Catholics and fetus people have it wrong.
I’ve read that the personality is a part of the soul. What’s your opinion?
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Oh, just read your subsequent post.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Like I said, my personal experience is that premature children have traits which I consider personally. Others can agree or not, but I have seen this first hand.
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Non-human animals have personalities, too. A baby has less personality than a mature monkey. Which was used in testing?
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?
Refer to my post #209. First sentence.
My Labrador puppy was more mature than a baby when I got her at 8 weeks. She knew how to poop and pee without getting it all over her and wipe herself if she needed.
That said, an 8 week old baby will surpass a Lab puppy over time. Human don't rub their rears on the ground to clean.
My Lab puppy has a different personality than my grandson's puppy. I think she had her personality before she was born and adapted to experiences after birth.
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