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Thread: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

  1. #401
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I'm checking to see if Kaz read the letter and registered the context. I can't tell from the smear suggestion in his post.
    TS-
    Not surprised by Chuck. Chuck is always ready to jump in simply to be oppositional. I assumed you would stop to ask was she afraid of being misrepresented, or was she afraid what she didn't want known being revealed?

    "Her eugenic beliefs also found themselves rooted in race, greatly affecting African American populations in America and furthering beliefs that people of color were lesser than or appropriate for being used as test subjects for medical advancements.
    ****
    Specifically, Sanger’s American Birth Control League closely collaborated with the Clinical Research Bureau to form the Birth Control Federation of America (BFCA) in 1939 [22]. The BFCA quickly planned “the Negro Project”, a project that, while claiming to be “established for the benefit of the colored people”, resulted in the formation of “family planning centers” that were found to be problematic for many reasons [23]. First, these clinics were likely erected as experimental clinics aiming to find the best way to reduce or eliminate the black population in regions densely populated by African Americans [24]. Additionally, these clinics appeared to be motivated by the ability to test new birth control methods on “less valuable” populations [25]. The BFCA, which Sanger was a key figure in running, demonstrated clear racial motivations in erecting these clinics and took actions that would bias the medical field against African Americans for decades to come."
    ****


    While these claims of Sanger’s personal poor-motivations behind the clinics may at first seem far-fetched, Sanger’s writings demonstrate that she was likely in agreement with the ideas of using eugenics on specifically African Americans to better the human race, and she knew that she would have to fight in order to ensure she did not come across this way to the public.
    Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/n...-eugenics.html



    ****
    “The removal of Margaret Sanger’s name from our building is both a necessary and overdue step to reckon with our legacy and acknowledge Planned Parenthood’s contributions to historical reproductive harm within communities of color,” said Karen Seltzer, Board Chair at PPGNY.
    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/pl...-health-center



  2. #402
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I'm aware of Sanger's history. I make no apologies for her racism. This is well known, and has been for decades.

    But the letter is not a confession.

    I am also having trouble seeing the parallel to Judge Coney Barrett. Is your point that people with bad personal ideas (eugenics, conservative Christianity) can do good things (advocate for birth control, make judgments on behalf of women's rights)?

  3. #403
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Hey Kaz, are you going to get back to our discussion of the presence (I posit) of an abusive dynamic between God and humanity in the Bible? I can't find which thread that was in now...

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I'm aware of Sanger's history. I make no apologies for her racism. This is well known, and has been for decades.

    But the letter is not a confession.

    I am also having trouble seeing the parallel to Judge Coney Barrett. Is your point that people with bad personal ideas (eugenics, conservative Christianity) can do good things (advocate for birth control, make judgments on behalf of women's rights)?
    Sanger writes she doesn't want her purposes known (see, the Negro Project}, her racism and support for eugenics have been well known to you for decades, that makes mine a smear post?

    "Confession" has an element of admitting wrongdoing. Don't think that would have crossed Sanger's mind that being a racist eugenicist was something to apologize for, though clearly she didn't want it known. Which can be evidence of a guilty mind.

    Mostly my post was an experiment to see whether responses would be based on who posted it, or on knee-jerk support of abortion (ignoring the well known philosophy of Sanger), or whether some one actually give it a moment of thought.

    Both sides of an issue are capable of actual thought and discussion. Just not here, not today.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Hey Kaz, are you going to get back to our discussion of the presence (I posit) of an abusive dynamic between God and humanity in the Bible? I can't find which thread that was in now...
    Certainly.
    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...ical-Christian
    page 8

  6. #406
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I'm aware of Sanger's history. I make no apologies for her racism. This is well known, and has been for decades.

    But the letter is not a confession.

    I am also having trouble seeing the parallel to Judge Coney Barrett. Is your point that people with bad personal ideas (eugenics, conservative Christianity) can do good things (advocate for birth control, make judgments on behalf of women's rights)?
    Sanger writes she doesn't want her purposes known (see, the Negro Project}, her racism and support for eugenics have been well known to you for decades, that makes mine a smear post?

    "Confession" has an element of admitting wrongdoing. Don't think that would have crossed Sanger's mind that being a racist eugenicist was something to apologize for, though clearly she didn't want it known. Which can be evidence of a guilty mind.

    Mostly my post was an experiment to see whether responses would be based on who posted it, or on knee-jerk support of abortion (ignoring the well known philosophy of Sanger), or whether some one actually give it a moment of thought.

    Both sides of an issue are capable of actual thought and discussion. Just not here, not today.
    Your post was what "experiment"? I read the letter and asked you a question about the context. I assert that you are misreading or misrepresenting the context. How is that about *you*?

  7. #407
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Hey Kaz, are you going to get back to our discussion of the presence (I posit) of an abusive dynamic between God and humanity in the Bible? I can't find which thread that was in now...
    Certainly.
    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...ical-Christian
    page 8
    Thanks. I don't see a follow up there, yet, to your statement that you would follow up (I reposted your statement of such as reference).

  8. #408
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    1864 law in Arizona? Let's see...hmm...before we even understood the mechanics of fertilization..."modern" reproductive mentality, there, Arizona! You're a beacon of enlightenment!

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Hey Kaz, are you going to get back to our discussion of the presence (I posit) of an abusive dynamic between God and humanity in the Bible? I can't find which thread that was in now...
    Certainly.
    https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread...ical-Christian
    page 8
    Thanks. I don't see a follow up there, yet, to your statement that you would follow up (I reposted your statement of such as reference).
    "Yet" is a fine word. Patience is a virtue.

  10. #410
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I'm aware of Sanger's history. I make no apologies for her racism. This is well known, and has been for decades.

    But the letter is not a confession.

    I am also having trouble seeing the parallel to Judge Coney Barrett. Is your point that people with bad personal ideas (eugenics, conservative Christianity) can do good things (advocate for birth control, make judgments on behalf of women's rights)?
    Sanger writes she doesn't want her purposes known (see, the Negro Project}, her racism and support for eugenics have been well known to you for decades, that makes mine a smear post?

    "Confession" has an element of admitting wrongdoing. Don't think that would have crossed Sanger's mind that being a racist eugenicist was something to apologize for, though clearly she didn't want it known. Which can be evidence of a guilty mind.

    Mostly my post was an experiment to see whether responses would be based on who posted it, or on knee-jerk support of abortion (ignoring the well known philosophy of Sanger), or whether some one actually give it a moment of thought.

    Both sides of an issue are capable of actual thought and discussion. Just not here, not today.
    Your post was what "experiment"? I read the letter and asked you a question about the context. I assert that you are misreading or misrepresenting the context. How is that about *you*?
    You can reread para 3 in post 404.
    You concede MS never confessed, and remained unrepentant regarding the racism you knew of for decades; PP felt compelled to disassociate itself from her name.

  11. #411
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I'm aware of Sanger's history. I make no apologies for her racism. This is well known, and has been for decades.

    But the letter is not a confession.

    I am also having trouble seeing the parallel to Judge Coney Barrett. Is your point that people with bad personal ideas (eugenics, conservative Christianity) can do good things (advocate for birth control, make judgments on behalf of women's rights)?
    Sanger writes she doesn't want her purposes known (see, the Negro Project}, her racism and support for eugenics have been well known to you for decades, that makes mine a smear post?

    "Confession" has an element of admitting wrongdoing. Don't think that would have crossed Sanger's mind that being a racist eugenicist was something to apologize for, though clearly she didn't want it known. Which can be evidence of a guilty mind.

    Mostly my post was an experiment to see whether responses would be based on who posted it, or on knee-jerk support of abortion (ignoring the well known philosophy of Sanger), or whether some one actually give it a moment of thought.

    Both sides of an issue are capable of actual thought and discussion. Just not here, not today.
    Your post was what "experiment"? I read the letter and asked you a question about the context. I assert that you are misreading or misrepresenting the context. How is that about *you*?
    You can reread para 3 in post 404.
    You concede MS never confessed, and remained unrepentant regarding the racism you knew of for decades; PP felt compelled to disassociate itself from her name.
    I don't understand this post. What did I "concede" that she "never" did? I simply said that the letter was not a confession. I did not claim that she "never" did anything.

    And, yes, PP has dissociated itself from her name. This is well known. As I repeat, I don't understand what point you are making with this about Amy Coney Barrett.

  12. #412
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I don't defend or apologize for Sanger's racism or her support for the idea of eugenics. I doubt anyone else here does either. I'm not sure what you're fishing for here.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    My work here is done.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    ??...

  15. #415
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Looks like Justice Alito is coming under some additional scrutiny (via the NYT reporting) that he may be the root problem of the leak of the Dobbs decision (and of the Hobby Lobby decision).

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Just reading the Hobby Lobby case, the Green family were not against all forms of birth control. What they were against paying for were methods that destroyed the fertilized egg. Since the ACA required all forms to be covered, this was the basis for the case.

    There is a pro-life perspective posted on the NYT page on Monday if interested.

  17. #417
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Just reading the Hobby Lobby case, the Green family were not against all forms of birth control. What they were against paying for were methods that destroyed the fertilized egg. Since the ACA required all forms to be covered, this was the basis for the case.

    There is a pro-life perspective posted on the NYT page on Monday if interested.
    Here's the problem with that stance: practicing NFP actually allows for and utilizes the destruction of fertilized eggs in the woman's body. "Individuals" are formed and then destroyed by the woman's menstrual flow (or otherwise perish in the woman's body). Those who practice NFP and are trying to limit pregnancy are actually hoping for and counting on this destruction of fertilized eggs to occur (occasionally).

  18. #418
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Looks like Justice Alito is coming under some additional scrutiny (via the NYT reporting) that he may be the root problem of the leak of the Dobbs decision (and of the Hobby Lobby decision).
    Even if he didn't, he gave the appearance of being too close to well-funded influencers. I am again reminded on Michael Gerson's excellent article where he shows the current Evangelical church in the US is not Biblically based on what Jesus taught about discipleship. Unfortunately, we now know that Christians in the US have become a political organization with ties at the very top. They don't even seem see their contradictions.

  19. #419
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Yeah, I did not know how much these justices can be wined and dined and granted access to. Spooky, really. And they don't have to reveal any accounting of the gifts/perks?

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Yeah, I did not know how much these justices can be wined and dined and granted access to. Spooky, really. And they don't have to reveal any accounting of the gifts/perks?
    Alito attended a World Series game this year. The network pointed it out.

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