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Thread: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

  1. #541
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Do you have a specific question?
    What? No. I answered your question.
    You wrote, " I really don't think you have to look outside of Christianity to find the familiar faces of every kind of evil ever perpetrated upon humanity." What was your point? That only Christians perpetrate evil?
    No, of course not "only Christians" commit evil.

    Your question that started this contained the unspoken presumption that you were not familiar with whatever "ideology" (your word) produced a policy of removing the children for adoption from a war zone. You seemed flummoxed by some "ideology" unfamiliar to you that would produce this practice. I thought about the question and the assumption and remembered that Putin is not only the leader of a country but also a professed born again Christian. The irony of this struck me so hard that I answered your question with the additional information that Putin's "ideology" is not so foreign or unfamiliar: he is a sexist, bigoted, white nationalist Christian male in one of the most powerful positions on the planet. This is actually FAMILIAR to us, no? Democracy and Christianity also both promote powerful systemic behaviors that, when they go unchecked, look just like what is happening with those children. Let's remember, for example, that the Nazis got their academic training on eugenics theory from Christian Americans in American universities.

    No, evil is not "only" in Christianity. But when mixed with Christian (or any religion's) ideas of exceptionalism and with institutional power, the inherent evil of humanity is amplified and spreads.
    There is no irony when compared to the message of Jesus, "rethink/reconsider what you've thought was true, the Kingdom of Heaven is right in front of your nose", my paraphrase. It is important to distinguish Christianity as a brand with discipleship/an apprenticeship with Jesus. This is his message to the early followers, and it has not changed. Someone can be a Christian, whatever that means to you, and not be a Christian. It is also probable that one could be a disciple and not a Christian. Just because someone, like Putin, performs a horrible act and then claims to be a "born again Christian", if he did, means nothing except to those unfamiliar with what Jesus taught. I mean no disrespect to your views on Putin or knowledge of Christianity, but it should not be confusing to anyone remotely familiar with what Jesus said and taught such as loving your neighbor as you love yourself and treating others as you would have them treat you. Both of these teachings would indicate that Putin has a different ideology that he is choosing to employ.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I don't think that it is very honest to reject people as Christian because they do bad things. History would record Putin as much a Christian as you, or any other Christian on this forum. The Apostles' Creed says nothing about justice, fairness, being sinless, or any such thing. It doesn't say, I hold the Golden Rule or the Sermon on the Mount above all else. It does not say that I will adhere to the 10 commandments. The traditional profession of Christian faith has nothing to do with ethics or being good or Christ-like.

  3. #543
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I am being honest, but it is not what you want to hear, Ted.

    Jesus told his disciples/apprentices to make disciples and teach them to do "all that I have commanded". From the same gospel he said " “beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." Therefore, it is incumbent upon a disciple to know how to discern what is consistent with being his disciple. Not in a way of judgement, but to know who to listen to or follow.

    Suggesting that Jesus didn't care what his disciples did or thought is inconsistent with a plain reading of the gospels. Paul restates Jesus' words in Romans 13:8-10

    "8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    As Ecclesiastes reads, there is no righteous man that never sins. Sinning or missing the bulls eye is always going to be present. No one truly seeking to be a disciple of Jesus would be able to justify treating others poorly and not watching out for the well being of others. It is a process to rid oneself of our human tendancies.

    Jesus followers were the nobodies, the rejected, the discouraged, the condemned, the problem child, etc. His good news was that they could get in on what he was doing and have a good life. You can't have a good life by consistantly mistreating your neighbor, lying, cheating, stealing, and coveting. He said that it was not enough to have good actions when your heart was evil. The example was adultery where it wasn't enough not to be adulteous, that lusting in your heart was just as inconsistent with the righteousness he wanted them to enjoy.

    Later he said the paraclete or the one coming along side would be given to aid his disciples in living the kind of life those in the Kingdom of God would enjoy. Of course he was referring to the Holy Spirit. As Paul said, he was not operating in human strength alone, but the power of the Spirit.

    All of this can be seen as an opportunity for anyone and everyone to be able to have the best life possible. If we see the law as restricting, we have missed the purpose entirely, "whom the son sets free is free in deed". If Mr. Putin would change his mind and decide to become a disciple of Jesus, the war with Ukranine would end tomorrow.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  4. #544
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I am being honest, but it is not what you want to hear, Ted.
    This is quite wrong. I don't "want" anything here. You misunderstand my disagreement with what you say as a form of "wanting" you to say something else. I don't want you to say anything other than what you think. Please don't misunderstand my disagreement with your ideas with wanting you to change them. I don't care at all whether you change your ideas or not.



    Suggesting that Jesus didn't care what his disciples did or thought...
    This is the kind of thing that I call dishonest. I did not suggest this. I did not mention Jesus. I referred to the Apostles' Creed, the oldest, most traditional profession of faith in Christian history. I reread it before I made my last post to be sure that I had it right (I had to memorize it as part of my confirmation process). These statements, according to the church fathers of the time, were the core values and statements that defined a Christian believer. I did not say and would never say that "Jesus did not care what his disciples did or thought." But the topic is whether it is fair or even accurate to decide that sinners, even great ones, can't be called "Christian." Again, my point was that if sinners cannot be classified as "Christian" if they commit sin, then there are no Christians at all on the planet. And that seems absurd as a founding premise of a world-wide faith.

    This discussion now probably ought to be on another thread.
    Last edited by TSherbs; March 2nd, 2023 at 08:59 AM.

  5. #545
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I moved my response over to the appropriate thread, where the discussion matches the thread title: Definition of Christian

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Wyoming joined 13 other states in banning abortifacient medications sold in their states. The balkanization of America continues. As I noted before, Maine providers have reported an increase in requests for abortion services from out of state. Protecting this right in this state will likely keep democrats in power here. Moreover, there is a strong power of referendum here to make legislation, and the majority of the population supports access to abortion services.

  7. #547
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Weird how the discussion veered off into a Christian cul-de-sac. But it's a fitting example of how those who call themselves Christians seek to enfold their biases in the mantle of religious belief.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    It is possible to sooth oneself that abortion is a good thing with we could just get religion out of the way. For those who see the unborn as part of the human race, they do have medical science that can support their view and need not rely on anything religious. It is not blindness that impairs, but the inability to open one's eyes.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Weird how the discussion veered off into a Christian cul-de-sac. But it's a fitting example of how those who call themselves Christians seek to enfold their biases in the mantle of religious belief.
    Sorry. That was mostly my fault.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Hypothetically, lets take all spirituality from the Earth. Do any of you have a way that would improve the human quality of life? If you think you have great words of wisdom, leave them here now. A friend used to say, if you don't like what I am doing, show me a better way. If you have improved upon the concept of loving your neighbor, all neighbors including those that disagree, as you love your own self, what would your recommendation be? Along with fine words must include the power to pull it off.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I'm now sticking to the topic of abortion on this thread.

  12. #552
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    A predictable outcome, given the punitive laws, right-wing threats, and religious fanaticism. What with the book bans, threats, and aggressive parents, I suspect some of the reddest states will soon have a shortage of teachers.

    Idaho hospital will stop delivering babies as doctors flee state due to abortion ban

    Near-total ban on abortions is driving doctors away, hospital says, leading to lack of nearby labor and delivery care for thousands

    Gloria Oladipo

    Mon 20 Mar 2023

    An Idaho hospital has planned to stop delivering babies, with the medical center’s managers citing increasing criminalization of physicians and the inability to retain pediatricians as major reasons.

    Bonner General Health, the only hospital in Sandpoint, Idaho, announced on Friday that it would no longer provide labor, delivery and a host of other obstetrical services.

    The more than 9,000 residents of Sandpoint are now forced to drive 46 miles for the nearest labor and delivery care, the Idaho Statesman reported. In a statement, the hospital’s leadership said that the decision to eliminate the obstetrics unit stemmed from the “political climate” in Idaho.

    “Highly respected, talented physicians are leaving. Recruiting replacements will be extraordinarily difficult,” hospital officials said in a press release. “We have made every effort to avoid eliminating these services,” the hospital’s board president, Ford Elsaesser, added in the statement. “We hoped to be the exception, but our challenges are impossible to overcome now.”

    The hospital’s statement also said that the closure comes as the number of deliveries at Bonner continues to decline, with only 265 babies delivered in 2022 and fewer than 10 pediatric patients admitted. The hospital also lacks enough pediatricians to manage its neonatal resuscitations and perinatal care, finding no permanent solution after reaching out to active and retired physicians to fill vacancies.

    Hospital officials are hoping to keep obstetrics services available until 19 May but noted that it largely depends on staffing. New patients are no longer being seen at the hospital, effective immediately, while current clients are being offered alternative referrals.

    Since the supreme court in June eliminated the nationwide abortion rights that Roe v wade established, states with total abortion bans have passed laws that threaten possible prison time for doctors who perform abortions in violation of state law. The supreme court decision legalized an Idaho state ban on abortions after six weeks of pregnancy. The state is the first to pass a copy of Texas’s controversial bill. It is also one of six that prosecutes doctors for providing the procedure, CBS News reported.

    In August, the justice department filed a lawsuit against Idaho for its near-total ban on abortions, with doctors in the state writing in a court brief that physicians were often forced to choose between violating the state ban or federal healthcare law, the Associated Press reported.

    The implication of the ban is driving doctors out of the state, the Bonner hospital’s press release noted. “The Idaho legislature continues to introduce and pass bills that criminalize physicians for medical care nationally recognized as the standard of care,” the hospital’s statement added. “Consequences for Idaho physicians providing the standard of care may include civil litigation and criminal prosecution, leading to jail time or fines.”

    Dr Amelia Huntsberger, a Bonner General Health obstetrician-gynecologist, wrote in an email to the Statesman that she would be leaving the hospital and the state because of its restrictive abortion laws and because the Idaho legislature was terminating its maternal mortality review committee.

    “What a sad, sad state of affairs for our community,” Huntsberger wrote, according to the Statesman.



    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e_iOSApp_Other
    Last edited by Chip; March 21st, 2023 at 10:41 PM.

  13. #553
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Balkanization continues

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    The reddest of states may also begin to have trouble holding on to young highly-educated, professional single women in the workplace, too. This is not good for long-term stability and growth. They can come to Maine and help us out!

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Another predictable outcome is the growth of an underground network to move abortion meds from states where they're legal to the others, where they're not.

    The cops busting poor women and judges jailing them won't be a big issue, but when they start popping rich college babes, some of whom have lawyers and politicians as parents, there will be a raging stink. But, given the institutional racism and white privilege embedded in our system, that might not happen.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Agreed. I've already read of women beginning to organize transportation chains for both other women and drugs to move across state lines. Women will get this done.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    And they will need even more federal subsidies from the tax revenue from blue states.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Another case, decided by the narrowest of margins: Oklahoma Supreme Court. The judges predict many more legal suits in the several states over the right (or lack thereof) to an abortion according to their state consitutions. As I said, the lawyers are going to make a lot of money from all this uncertainty.

    *For now,* women in Oklahoma can still receive an abortion if their lives are threatened by the pregnancy. For now, and by only a 5-4 margin in the decision.

    Gifted from WaPo: https://wapo.st/42yuVrA

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    This WaPo columnist decries Texas ruling on abortifacient drug:

    WaPo gift article

    https://wapo.st/3zJLVhy

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Nebraska and South Carolina pull back from more extreme anti-abortion bills:

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/28/polit...ina/index.html

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