Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you all for participating.

[TSherbs]

TS. I think you know what we are getting at with the phrase but I look forward to what you may add and how it might shape the conversation.

Edited for manners sake

It's important to get the terminology clear and correct.

For example, you wrote that "identity" begins before conception. I really have no idea what that means. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "identity" and how it could begin before conception.

[Bold2013]

Identity would be one created in the image of God (humans)

God knew all our days before our lives began (Ps 139)

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

[TSherbs]

Oh, I see. A religious belief of some Christians.

[Chuck Naill]

Identity would be one created in the image of God (humans)

God knew all our days before our lives began (Ps 139)

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

What if that's information that you don't believe?

As a former Evangelical, I have tried to separate my position about the unborn from any religous speak or basis. My own experience with twins born at 27 weeks allowed me to see "inside the womb" if you will. So, if you see a 1.5 pound child at 27 weeks, they were smaller at 22 weeks, but just as much who they were later. The girl was fussy as a premie and is still the same today at 10 years old.

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Is this all going to devolve into whether a person thinks they inhabit a secular state or not?

[Bold2013]

TS I answered your question. Please enlighten further me with your soliloquy on life and gametes.

[TSherbs]

Is this all going to devolve into whether a person thinks they inhabit a secular state or not?

Why should it? I am not interested in that debate. I was just curious what the guy meant. Now I know. I have no interest in discussion of religion as part of this.

[TSherbs]

TS I answered your question. Please enlighten further me with your soliloquy on life and gametes.

I just saw this. Now I have no interest in further discussion on this thread at all.

[dneal]

Why should it? I am not interested in that debate. I was just curious what the guy meant. Now I know. I have no interest in discussion of religion as part of this.

I just saw this. Now I have no interest in further discussion on this thread at all.

Screen Shot 2021-12-01 at 7.09.26 PM.png

[dneal]

Back on topic...

Bold2013's remark about frozen embryos is something I hadn't considered. Say the "life begins at conception" argument is adopted (hypothetically). What does that mean for those embryos? Would it become illegal to let them expire? Refrigeration failure would be some sort of manslaughter or negligent homicide?

It gets legally and ethically messy really fast.

[TSherbs]

I just saw this. Now I have no interest in further discussion on this thread at all.

Screen Shot 2021-12-01 at 7.09.26 PM.png

godsake, douchebag

fuckoff already

You're acting like a vindictive weirdo

[dneal]

Well, the proof is in the posting. Hugs and kisses.

[Chuck Naill]

Viabilty is an interesting concept being considered. Synthetic surfactant was not availble until the 1990's which allows many premature children to survive.

Language is interesting. Fetus is used before birth and baby afterwards. I feel this is to make the discussion about the unborn to be less emotional. If Scott Peterson could be convicted of infanticide when he killed his wife, why do we think otherwise toward a child whose mother wishes to abort. I think it is a way to not think about what is occuring. I know this sounds like much to do about nothing for some and I mean nothing inflamatory, just thinking how language works.

[Chuck Naill]

Anyone with a New York Time subscription can read an excellent, thoughtful op-ed by David Brook this morning. Not sure if this will work for youi. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/02/o...smid=url-share

[Bold2013]

Thanks interesting article.

A portion that I enjoyed

“To me the crucial question is when does a living organism become a human soul. My intuition is that it’s not a moment, but a process — a process shrouded in divine mystery.”

I think most “evangelicals” don’t spend enough time thinking how the mother to be feels. Maybe it a little like people facing a loss of a job if they don’t get a vaccine. We want our autonomy. But at what point do we have to consider another (baby or society).

Thankfully there has been increasing Christian programs to help council woman after abortions and adoption in the church (well at least mine). Because caring for these woman and children is true and undefined religion (James 1).

[dneal]

I think most “evangelicals” don’t spend enough time thinking how the mother to be feels.

Not an evangelical, but from personal experience it seems that "cranky" and "hungry" are at the top of the list.

Sorry for the distraction, but a little levity never hurt...

To your point though, the problem with introducing religion - or making an argument from it - is that there is seldom agreement. People differ in religious belief, doctrine and interpretation; with little ability to "prove" that their argument is the correct one.

The point you imply on empathy is well made though, and in the final analysis is a large factor. One side empathizes more with the pregnant woman, the other with the unborn embryo/fetus/life/person.

[Chuck Naill]

I think most “evangelicals” don’t spend enough time thinking how the mother to be feels.

Not an evangelical, but from personal experience it seems that "cranky" and "hungry" are at the top of the list.

Sorry for the distraction, but a little levity never hurt...

To your point though, the problem with introducing religion - or making an argument from it - is that there is seldom agreement. People differ in religious belief, doctrine and interpretation; with little ability to "prove" that their argument is the correct one.

The point you imply on empathy is well made though, and in the final analysis is a large factor. One side empathizes more with the pregnant woman, the other with the unborn embryo/fetus/life/person.

Well stated, @dneal. Brooks said the progressives act like there is no ending of human life and the other side shows little concern for the pregnant female. There are people who think all pro life supporters are just clinging to their religion or "created in the image of God".

Having housed a pregnant person before and after, there are opportunities for all who would go beyond the rhetoric.

While probably not appropriate for a single male, I am not opposed to providing shelter for a pregnant person. Since I have a howling puppy, a crying child might be a welcomed respite...LOL!!

[Bold2013]

I can see the problem with introducing religion however we all have the moral law without religion. We all know murder and being a false witness are wrong. We all desire justice.

[Chuck Naill]

I can see the problem with introducing religion however we all have the moral law without religion. We all know murder and being a false witness are wrong. We all desire justice.

I do agree the law is embedded within us. Children complain about something not being fair.

However, an unwanted child should not be forced and a simple path to adoption at least an option. I mean, abortion is not the only path and both mother and child preserved.