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Thread: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I agree there is middle ground for both parties so long as no one gets killed
    Last edited by Bold2013; December 3rd, 2021 at 11:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    I agree there is middle ground for both parties so long as no one gets killed
    Do you other than, or including, the child?

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I am late to the topic, so let me first answer the original question: “Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?” No. Not unless we are able to avoid discussion of what “abortion” is, and the means by which it is accomplished.

    As late to the topic, has the name “Gosnell” come up?
    https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news..._abortion.html

    And, has anyone addressed Justice Thomas question at oral argument:
    “THOMAS: I understand we are talking about abortion here.

    But what is confusing is that we -- if we were talking about the Second Amendment, I know exactly what we are talking about. If we're talking about the Fourth Amendment, I know what we're talking about because it's written. It is there. What specifically is the right here that we are talking about?”



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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    I am late to the topic, so let me first answer the original question: “Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?” No. Not unless we are able to avoid discussion of what “abortion” is, and the means by which it is accomplished.

    As late to the topic, has the name “Gosnell” come up?
    https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news..._abortion.html

    And, has anyone addressed Justice Thomas question at oral argument:
    “THOMAS: I understand we are talking about abortion here.

    But what is confusing is that we -- if we were talking about the Second Amendment, I know exactly what we are talking about. If we're talking about the Fourth Amendment, I know what we're talking about because it's written. It is there. What specifically is the right here that we are talking about?”


    I did post regarding Goznell.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Kaz has left the building as usual….lol!

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I try to remember that there is life off FPG.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to kazoolaw For This Useful Post:

    Chuck Naill (December 6th, 2021)

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    I agree there is middle ground for both parties so long as no one gets killed
    Do you other than, or including, the child?
    Correct. Don’t want to kill babies and don’t want to leave broken women behind.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I am posting this because it happened in the past ten years. Kemit Gosnell operated an abortion clinic and performed late term abortions. There are citizens who think abortions are being performed legally and therefore ethically. Maybe, maybe not.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell
    "Practice staff routinely delivered living babies in the third trimester, subsequently killing them (or ensuring their death).[59] As part of this, fetuses and babies had their demise "ensured" post-operatively by severing of the spinal cord with scissors, known by staff as "snipping".... Among the "few cases" where tangible evidence existed, the jury noted a boy aged 30 weeks at six pounds; a frozen body in a water container of "at least" 28 weeks; remains of at least one abortion of over 32 weeks for which an extra $1000 had been demanded; testimony of a baby heard to make noise; and a baby left "moving and breathing for at least 20 minutes" prior to "snipping". The jury heard testimony about "special" Sunday sessions, at which only Gosnell and his wife were present, which the jury suspected (and in some cases was able to corroborate) would include cases that were more advanced in time, or more disturbing"

    From the Wikipedia source Chuck quoted, in case the article was too long to read.


    From the Philadelphi Inquirer link:
    "It's one of the macabre mysteries in the case of Kermit Gosnell: Why did the West Philadelphia abortion doctor keep the severed feet of fetuses preserved in specimen jars?"

    Grafting of fetal skin onto rodents:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71548-z

    An argument for after-birth abortions:
    Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.
    Journal of Medical Ethics, https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261

    Where is the ground for civil discussion/debate of such?


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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I am posting this because it happened in the past ten years. Kemit Gosnell operated an abortion clinic and performed late term abortions. There are citizens who think abortions are being performed legally and therefore ethically. Maybe, maybe not.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell
    "Practice staff routinely delivered living babies in the third trimester, subsequently killing them (or ensuring their death).[59] As part of this, fetuses and babies had their demise "ensured" post-operatively by severing of the spinal cord with scissors, known by staff as "snipping".... Among the "few cases" where tangible evidence existed, the jury noted a boy aged 30 weeks at six pounds; a frozen body in a water container of "at least" 28 weeks; remains of at least one abortion of over 32 weeks for which an extra $1000 had been demanded; testimony of a baby heard to make noise; and a baby left "moving and breathing for at least 20 minutes" prior to "snipping". The jury heard testimony about "special" Sunday sessions, at which only Gosnell and his wife were present, which the jury suspected (and in some cases was able to corroborate) would include cases that were more advanced in time, or more disturbing"

    From the Wikipedia source Chuck quoted, in case the article was too long to read.


    From the Philadelphi Inquirer link:
    "It's one of the macabre mysteries in the case of Kermit Gosnell: Why did the West Philadelphia abortion doctor keep the severed feet of fetuses preserved in specimen jars?"

    Grafting of fetal skin onto rodents:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71548-z

    An argument for after-birth abortions:
    Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.
    Journal of Medical Ethics, https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261

    Where is the ground for civil discussion/debate of such?

    My concern or thoughts upon learning of Gossnell was to ask how common it is for these clinic to exist elsewhere? As a drug rep I called on an OB . He had a entry in his calendar, I can't remember why I noticed, that said "Vol 5", VOL 2". I asked him what that meant. He said it was the number of abortions he performed at Volunteer Clinic and casually commented that it brough in extra income per month. Abortion is a cash crop and I am not being "uncivil". It actually startled me. This was in the 1980's. I never called on him again. Being that insensitive toward babies was too much.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Other than this post, I won't be joining the discussion. I can't stay civil on the issue. I always end up yelling and waving coathangers around, then demanding a grilled cheddar sammich on Orowheat honey wheat berry bread. I also tend to start going on about spontaneous contractile activity of transformed 3T3 fibroblasts and nematodes and grasshoppers. I am vehemently pro-choice, and I informed myself before I chose to have an abortion. ETA: I forgot to mention the fibrinogen/coagulopathy rabbit hole. I go on about that, too.
    Last edited by TFarnon; December 14th, 2021 at 07:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I'm a male who grew up in the days when abortion was illegal. Back when bastards was not the in thing to have in High School; in fact ruined the girl for ever....she if lucky got to get a second class guy.....in she was now a second class girl.

    I am against fundamentalists, passing laws that say women are third class citizens with no rights.....It's true they have no brains, or they would move to liberal states, where women have rights. Abandon any husband that wishes to remain in those hell states.

    None of those fundamentalists have three or four bastard orphans living in their homes.
    One thing leads to the other....abortion to the coming civil war.


    Gobbles could take lessons from the 25 years of hate preaching Nazi Fox News. The Civil War is being programed. Almost happened on the 6th. I'm so, so glad I live in Germany.
    In the US Concentration camps are being spoken about.....but what is needed is a second Underground Railway, to get those women north and or east and west out of Ohio, and other such Red women hating states.

    I happened to be in the States when some famous Jerk on Fox News Danced for Joy, in the Great Liberal Vonnegut was dead. A dozen times said The Liberal was 80 and hadn't written a book since he was 60 and had been in the nut house (didn't mention come out cured; nor for what) .....well had I survived the Firebombing of Dresden, I'd be a bit shaky. The Dancer never flogged the many books he never wrote either.

    Vonnegut was a bit too liberal for me...but I did read his easy to read books. The library was small and I'd read everything else.
    In Collage girls would walk around with a book of his showing, to show they could read....but I never saw him as The Great Liberal. Enemy of all Right Thinking Draft Dodgers.....none of those jerks on Fox News ever even went to basic training. Including their Darling the Orange Haired Draft Dodger; who laughed at America's dead. That was swept quickly under the rug at goosestepping Fox.

    Fear flag wavers, in they want your son to go off and die for their money. Their son's are not stupid enough to need to get a job in the Army.

    I was once a Goldwater Boy....but have since joined the Union, even done time on the wage board...so am a flaming Commie..... Workers should make a living wage....and with only One Job!!!!! Not six, counting the wife.

    At age 35 found out the line I was standing in was not for the free million dollars I was promised.............What do you mean they spent the extras in the Social Securities to buy votes???!!!!

    Nixon was a criminal, so is orange head, who makes Nixon seem wise and restrained.

    The idiots who passed what's on TV to get out of HS, have to find someone to blame....those queer liberals are at fault for everything. Those commies want the rich to pay their fair share; how Un-American can you get!!!

    The Government is injecting mind controlling nano's in everyone.....so everyone will only go to Wallmarkt and no where else.
    They are going to make America socialist in spite of their wishes...in they do want a roof over their heads and food. @ 1/4th of the infected have and will have long term health problems. Some un-vaccinated survivors can not work...hell, walk half a mile in an hour; and that after a year or so.

    Here in 'Socialist' Germany they are covered by their worker's insurance, if not working Government insurance. (We could get the fools vaccinated if they had to pay for their hospitalization.)
    How is that being handled in Capitalistic America?

    What are you going to do in America.....do the Conservative thing and let them die homeless, or become Socialist, and keep the fools alive.
    Last edited by BoBo Olson; December 27th, 2021 at 09:22 AM.

  13. #52
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    My experience has been that many many Christians adopted black and brown children, I mean hard to place children. Those with surgical requirements. Some with mental disorders due to substance abuse like "Neonatal Substance Abuse (NAS).

    In the 1980's, black social workers did not want white families adopting black children. We did, and I have bi-racial grandchildren.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    It is my experience if there is a fish on the back of the car, it's full of cheapskate hypocrites. Sect members.

    I can understand why black social workers would try to keep black/brown children away from white 'look at me feel good', when there were enough unwanted white orphans.

    Surely statistics say how many orphans are placed in non paying foster homes? Broken down by state.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoBo Olson View Post
    It is my experience if there is a fish on the back of the car, it's full of cheapskate hypocrites. Sect members.

    I can understand why black social workers would try to keep black/brown children away from white 'look at me feel good', when there were enough unwanted white orphans.

    Surely statistics say how many orphans are placed in non paying foster homes? Broken down by state.
    Can't comment regarding fish anaolgy.

    Sure, some white familles might, but the children were difficult to place for adoption. Our church family was receptive. We adopted because we wanted to have more children. I have six bi-racial grandchildren. I am very close to the twins.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Let me try again at an answer here.

    First, yes, we *can* have a civil discussion. Whether we will or not will be seen.

    To the topic:

    There are several subtopics to this discussion; I will try to address the ones that I can think of as I sit here at the moment.

    1) The moral argument about the "child": Yes, an embryo or a fetus is being terminated in an abortion, and the degree to which you consider this a "sacred life" will likely determine the degree to which one considers abortion a moral wrong. Since not all religions see this "sacred life" equally, nor have they done so over their histories, I see no strong moral imperative concerning the "sanctity" of an embryo or fetus before viability.

    2) Yes, a separate embryonic individual defined by its separate DNA from its mother (and father) is begun at conception. But a full set of individualized DNA is not how we define a "person," it is only how we identify a carrier of that DNA. Our DNA does not defineus as individual persons; it is only a unique marker. Our spit, for example, carries our DNA, but when we spit, we do not actually bud off another individual (it would be a twin, in this case). A full set of human DNA is not sufficient in defining when we have a actual complete human individual present.

    3) What is a "human life," and when does it receive the full protection of its legal rights? I don't believe that any society has actually allocated full human legal personhood to any embryonic stage of development (I may be wrong, but I have never yet read of this in my readings on the topic). I won't try to summarize all the variations of legal protections (laws) over this issue (in part because I am aware that I don't know it all), but my understanding is that for the majority of recorded human history societies have "permitted" the termination of pregnancies in early stages (and the earlier, the more permissible). Yes, human societies have also had an uneasy history with this practice because, as is still the case now, we have a strong biological, ethical, and religious bias toward favoring procreation and the value of children and family and human life more generally. We don't take this away easily, nor should we. However, we also recognize that fetuses born too early rarely survive, and as such we are reluctant to accord them full legal status and protection and rights.

    Part of the reluctance in our granting a pre-viable human fetus legal rights is the legal mess that this would likely cause around miscarriage and negligence, manslaughter, or homicide charges toward the mother (or other agent of stress or injury to the unborn, all the way back to conception). For example, if a legally protected life begins at the moment of conception, then many parents who engage in natural family planning (including the rhythm method) could be charged with murder because this method knowingly results in some fertilization of eggs occurring (making a "person" according to this definition) and then uses the woman's menstruation to slough off the resulting "child." We know that this occurs, because ovulation can and does occur at all times of the apparent cycle, and sometimes women are quite surprised with when they get pregnant (some even during the bleeding part of menstruation). Yes, most other fertilized embryos that occur then are lost to menstruation, but not *all.* If one goes by the strict definition of a legally protected human life begins at conception, then these would all be cases of death for investigation (and any organizations promoting NFP would have to answer to the statistical estimates of how many pregnancies are terminated through this method). There are many other legal conundrums that result from defining a legally protected life as beginning at conception; others can explore or debate them here if they wish.

    4) The rights of the mother (and lesser so, the father, or donor): I believe that human patriarchal societies (I am sure not all) have been evolving in their understanding of the rights of women and/or mothers, and permissible pregnancy terminations have been a part of recognizing the burden and difficulty (and danger) that additional unwanted children can have on women, families, and other children in the families. Women are and have been for millennia abused, mistreated, assaulted, and raped by men both inside and outside of marriage, and only they most directly suffer the consequences of that abuse on their bodies and their futures. It is an unequal, unfair, and unjust reality of power, sex, and reproduction in our evolutionary biology of gender and the realities of physical dominance and patriarchal support of that imbalance. Permissible termination of pregnancy is one safety valve for the women (and their families, if they have one) to decrease the danger and burden (psychological and physical) of unwanted pregnancies. We all know this, and human societies have known this for millennia also. This imbalance in sexual power and authority and the imbalance of the burden of children and child-raising is still behind all of the talk of the "rights of the mother" today, particularly around the feeling of "taking back their bodies" and demanding that no one--especially not men--have any right to say what these women can or can't do with their bodies. The "zone of privacy" that the SC described in 1973 is, in my opinion, fueled by the understanding that women deserve better treatment and more autonomy over their bodies, especially in relation to the males of the species. And since abortions will occur whether they are legally permitted or not, making some of them permissible and less dangerous benefits the health and safety of the mothers greatly.

    5) I support the legal permissibility of abortion/pregnancy termination for any reason before the medically-accepted age of "viability" as our best middle ground between all the competing interests and needs.

    There are other legal and ethical issues around fathers, donors, precedence, federal versus state regulation, etc, but I am just trying to write a quick set of statements from my point of view. I am not trying to argue or change anyone's mind.

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    In 1973 synthetic surfactant was not available. Introduced in the early to mid '90's, this is what allowed premature children to survive. The point is, they were just as much human but the medical availability was not available.

    We cannot use then viabilty argument to suggest the unborn is not fully human.

    If someone decides to abort, and that is their right as a US citizen, they cannot say the unborn is not human or unviable. They must choose to decide to eliminate and otherwise human.

    We would not abort a pregant bitch and suggest the unborn are not dogs.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Regarding E.O Wilson who died recently,. "“Ed’s holy grail was the sheer delight of the pursuit of knowledge,”

    If we seek to understand the biology of conception and birth, is the politics more important than knowledge?

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    American a second class land, unable to provide a social net like many countries in Europe. I don't know how much of a net Canada has, in I live in Germany and don't catch the anti-Canadian rants. I expect twice as much as the US. Not as much as in Germany.
    Hell we pay folks to have babies.........Kindergelt....even the well off are paid for having babies.

    How many unwanted children are you going to condemn to generations of poverty? As if what we now have is not enough.
    In Europe men don't have to abandon their families because of welfare problems like in America, that has destroyed an upbringing culture in the black and perhaps brown ghettos. They can stay home and do their father jobs.....of course there are those who do poorly at that.


    I'm a BAP. Born Again Pagan......in India has 3,000,000 gods I'm bound to find one that satisfies me. Not into the One Eyed guy or woman chasing Jove. Buddhism strikes me as a bit selfish.
    The Egyptians had a great set of commandments.
    ""42 laws of Ma'at or Maat. Historians believe that these laws existed at least 2000 years before the 10 commandments were given to Moses in 1490 BC."""
    The most important to get into heaven was the last, all the commandments must be obeyed with a heart as light as a feather and in honor and joy.


    The whole right to live BS is coming from Fundamentalist so called Christians, forcing their god and lack of godliness down the throats of everyone else. I see no honor, I see no Joy, I see Hate and the willingness to hurt others for their own self being.

    You shouldn't have sex.....not even if raped nor incest. Someone who is Not going to take care of your child, that you didn't want, no matter what....is not going to let you abort.

    The women I knew/know who aborted didn't go dancing to the clinic, and have thoughts about it decades later.
    Too bad, they were free. I can remember the struggle for them to become free. Their daughters and granddaughters are not free.

    I advise an woman who can work...no matter what age, to leave such Bible Belt states.
    That would make for interesting male social problems.



    Texas and other follow the leader States; Florida, Mississippi and the rest are going to jail women that get an abortion? (And the Doctor, nurse, secretary and janitor.) Well, if not today, there is always the morning.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    No way to predict future poverty. We can predict that those aborted humans will not be present.

    If we can get over religion, our discussion might be better. Prolife is biologic, not religious. If you want to end human life at least say so.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    TSherbs. I agreed that there are many unequal items when it comes to the sexes (it’s almost as if it was designed that way…). Sexual stakes are a lot higher for the women who will carry the child. But I don’t think the answer is evening our differences is by letting woman kill their babies.

    BoBo. You sound like a theologian.

    Will be interesting to see what the Supreme Court does with Roe

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