Page 5 of 45 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 884

Thread: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

  1. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Insurance premiums or tax payers.
    Post 77: Chuck abandons "laws are not the answer" principle.
    Remember the context?
    Yup, your post saying that laws are not the answer. Not "some" laws.

  2. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,658
    Thanks
    2,027
    Thanked 2,189 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post

    If a child is not a person, and has a right to live at birth, then when?
    Is this question rhetorical? Sometimes you are ironic but I misread the tone.

    -->At viability. I answered this already. I am not here to debate or defend. Nor repeat, really. (Except this time).

  3. #83
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Insurance premiums or tax payers.
    Post 77: Chuck abandons "laws are not the answer" principle.
    Remember the context?
    Yup, your post saying that laws are not the answer. Not "some" laws.
    Laws related to abortive rights was the context. They are not going to change whether people do or don’t get an abortion. It will either make it easier or more difficult.

    Rules of participation for insurance providers is different where regulations are required.

    Two different topics.

  4. #84
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post

    If a child is not a person, and has a right to live at birth, then when?
    Is this question rhetorical? Sometimes you are ironic but I misread the tone.

    -->At viability. I answered this already. I am not here to debate or defend. Nor repeat, really. (Except this time).
    Thank you for your reply.
    If we consider that the right to life begins at viability, does that life have the same protections against it being taken as every other life?

  5. #85
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,658
    Thanks
    2,027
    Thanked 2,189 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    [
    If we consider that the right to life begins at viability, does that life have the same protections against it being taken as every other life?
    You go now. I've answered enough questions for a while. You can just state your position. I'd like to read what others have to say, but only if they feel like being open and transparent about it. I don't have any questions that need to be answered.

  6. #86
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Yeah, Ted has answered enough.

  7. #87
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    [
    If we consider that the right to life begins at viability, does that life have the same protections against it being taken as every other life?
    You go now. I've answered enough questions for a while. You can just state your position. I'd like to read what others have to say, but only if they feel like being open and transparent about it. I don't have any questions that need to be answered.
    As I said earlier, I respect not wanting to discuss the issue publicly in this forum.

  8. #88
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,658
    Thanks
    2,027
    Thanked 2,189 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    You go now. I've answered enough questions for a while. You can just state your position. I'd like to read what others have to say, but only if they feel like being open and transparent about it. I don't have any questions that need to be answered.
    As I said earlier, I respect not wanting to discuss the issue publicly in this forum.
    Right. But reciprocality helps a conversation and mutual understanding progress. This means that you were asking me questions that you yourself aren't willing to answer here. I don't mind because you were polite, but I don't quite get your motive. Maybe you were out to get me to change my mind. I dunno. But now I see that it wasn't to exchange points of view. I would not have attacked or challenged you in any way on it, but as you say, we are free not to discuss this publicly.

    Have a good day. We're past the solstice, so days are getting longer. But still getting colder here in Maine. Yesterday topped out here at 11F!

  9. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    TS-
    If i missed a question you asked please repeat it or refer to the post you asked it in.
    I'm not shy about responding. Nor am I concerned with attacks, and enjoy being challenged.
    Ask away.

  10. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Saw this on the other FP site, "Have you noticed that all the people in favor of birth control are already born?” – Benny Hill

    This applies to abortion as well, I suppose.

  11. #91
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    To the topic:


    3) What is a "human life," and when does it receive the full protection of its legal rights? I don't believe that any society has actually allocated full human legal personhood to any embryonic stage of development (I may be wrong, but I have never yet read of this in my readings on the topic). I won't try to summarize all the variations of legal protections (laws) over this issue (in part because I am aware that I don't know it all), but my understanding is that for the majority of recorded human history societies have "permitted" the termination of pregnancies in early stages (and the earlier, the more permissible). Yes, human societies have also had an uneasy history with this practice because, as is still the case now, we have a strong biological, ethical, and religious bias toward favoring procreation and the value of children and family and human life more generally. We don't take this away easily, nor should we. However, we also recognize that fetuses born too early rarely survive, and as such we are reluctant to accord them full legal status and protection and rights.

    Part of the reluctance in our granting a pre-viable human fetus legal rights is the legal mess that this would likely cause around miscarriage and negligence, manslaughter, or homicide charges toward the mother (or other agent of stress or injury to the unborn, all the way back to conception). For example, if a legally protected life begins at the moment of conception, then many parents who engage in natural family planning (including the rhythm method) could be charged with murder because this method knowingly results in some fertilization of eggs occurring (making a "person" according to this definition) and then uses the woman's menstruation to slough off the resulting "child." We know that this occurs, because ovulation can and does occur at all times of the apparent cycle, and sometimes women are quite surprised with when they get pregnant (some even during the bleeding part of menstruation). Yes, most other fertilized embryos that occur then are lost to menstruation, but not *all.* If one goes by the strict definition of a legally protected human life begins at conception, then these would all be cases of death for investigation (and any organizations promoting NFP would have to answer to the statistical estimates of how many pregnancies are terminated through this method). There are many other legal conundrums that result from defining a legally protected life as beginning at conception; others can explore or debate them here if they wish.
    The history of infanticide does not mean our understanding of human rights must remain stagnant. In Sparta, sources say, the government would decide which babies would live and which would be left to die. In Rome the father had the choice to accept or reject the child, whether or not it was healthy. It was common in more recent times not to name a child until it was older because of the high rate of child mortality. We've moved beyond the caste system, and the view of people as chattel. As mores and medicine advance children are more readily understood to be people, not simply to be disposed of. [We can address the regression to the concept of "post-birth abortion" at another time.] Not everyone is so reluctant to extend the basic right to life to the unborn.

    Not extending any rights to the embryo/fetus/child has created any number of thorny issues; it's too late to say that a "legal mess" militates against the extension of human rights. An embryo is without legal status: in a divorce action there are disputes over the who gets them. If the egg donor wants to keep them, have them implanted and carry them full term can she force the sperm donor, who did not want the embryo preserved, to pay child support? If she carries to term, and gives birth after remarrying the husband is deemed to be the father. Can the sperm donor reappear and claim visitation rights? Some legal thought is to address them a property in considering a division of property in a divorce? Is an embryo "property?" The egg donor doesn't want the embryo and, further, doesn't want the sperm donor to have the embryo implanted to grow to be a child. How does one weigh those competing interests? We already wrestle with the issues of injury and death to an unborn child, just as we weigh issues of injury and death to those in a coma. There is an entire legal specialty dealing with medical malpractice in neonatal care. Litigation around injuries involving lack of oxygen during labor due to constriction of the umbilical cord are not uncommon.

  12. #92
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    So happy our 27 week twins are alive and well. The boy is here today for virtual school.
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; January 21st, 2022 at 03:01 PM.

  13. #93
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I am reading about a Texas woman who performed a self-abortion or helped in an abortion this morning who is in jail with $500K bail.

  14. #94
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,658
    Thanks
    2,027
    Thanked 2,189 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    The DA is dropping murder charges.

  15. #95
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,630
    Thanks
    3,598
    Thanked 1,044 Times in 638 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    So happy our 27 week twins are alive and well. The boy is here today for virtual school.
    Sounds kinda young for school. You might want to wait until they are at least 4-5 years old.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  16. #96
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    So happy our 27 week twins are alive and well. The boy is here today for virtual school.
    Sounds kinda young for school. You might want to wait until they are at least 4-5 years old.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Well, that flew right over your head didn't it?

  17. #97
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    If you have read the Women’s Health Protection Act of 2021 were you able to find a definition of "abortion?"

  18. #98
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    If you have read the Women’s Health Protection Act of 2021 were you able to find a definition of "abortion?"
    I read the transcript of Roe V Wade.

  19. #99
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,744
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    I read the transcript of Roe V Wade.
    Probably stayed at a Holiday Inn too.
    Equally irrelevant to the question.

  20. #100
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,794
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I know what an abortion is, Kas

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •