Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

[dneal]

Based on your second to last paragraph, it seems that you actually want to cause this havoc. It's sort of a game. Unfortunately, triggering the others is triggering you. When they name call, you name call. According to the last paragraph, you're referring to this as fun. However, you're saying you wish you weren't becoming like this.

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Part of the problem is that everyone wants to ascribe motive, which is bickering little girl levels of discussion. "Susie is a big meanie". "Amanda hates purple people".

You do this. "dneal wants to cause havoc".

I'm certainly not triggered. I point out the irrationality and hypocrisy of a poster's own statements. I literally mimic Chuck's posts back to him. I quote his own words to point out his hypocritical behavior. I have said repeatedly "don't be an ass, and I won't either". Many demonstrate repeatedly that they can only dish it out, and not take it; but it never dawns on them that they play a part in the "havoc". More hypocrisy. I find the faux outrage (hell, maybe it's even genuine) humorous, mainly in that those who exhibit it seem completely unaware of their own behavior. Perhaps that's why they (you?) assume I must be triggered, or outraged, as well. Nope.

So if that's the way posters here want this forum to be, fine. I can indeed find fun in it. It becomes a game of "dozens". Although you are attempting some high ground here, your hands are not clean either.

That doesn't mean I don't wish it were otherwise.

[Chuck Naill]

From what I am reading, most Americans support first trimester abortive rights. By week 20-22 lots of things are going on inside the womb. What Kermit Gosnell was doing, most people would be appalled if they knew what was occurring if they were informed.

One problem is that the Pro Life movement is being mischaracterized. Most do not understand the issues except abortion rights being diminished or taken away.

If it were possible to come to a sense of compromise that would allow free birth control and in the situations of rape, incest, or life, abortion would be available.

I am also learning that adoptions are not as expensive as I had read. This is good news.

[dneal]

Good post, Chuck.

It seems that much of the problem is each extreme (under any circumstance vs under no circumstance) attempting to force the discussion into those choices. The Mississippi 15 week law seems reasonable, although generally I find abortion to be a reprehensible alternative to other contraceptive choices that should have been made.

[TSherbs]

One problem is that the Pro Life movement is being mischaracterized.

Mischaracterized how? I understand the legal movement to be about eliminating abortion on demand (which has been eliminated) and now more recently as an effort to restrict access even more (down to 15 weeks, which also succeeded), and then combine with an effort to move conservative justices onto the SC (which has succeeded) and then to try to overturn Roe (which appears to have succeeded). This is how the pro-life movement has been characterized for decades, and they never denied it.

Do you see any part of this a mischaracterization?

I have also read of pro-life legislators attempting to introduce laws defining the start of life and personhood at the moment of conception. This, I would characterize, has been an attempt by prolifers to begin the process of criminalizing and outlawing all forms of termination of pregnancy, including pharmacological. Is this a mischaracterization of those attempts at establishing new laws?

[TSherbs]

If it were possible to come to a sense of compromise that would allow free birth control and in the situations of rape, incest, or life, abortion would be available.

Having no legal elective abortion available at any stage of pregnancy (except for victims of rape, etc) is not a "compromise" after 50 years of legal abortions sanctioned by the SC. I am an advocate of "compromise," but what you are suggesting is not one.

[Chuck Naill]

If it were possible to come to a sense of compromise that would allow free birth control and in the situations of rape, incest, or life, abortion would be available.

Having no legal elective abortion available at any stage of pregnancy (except for victims of rape, etc) is not a "compromise" after 50 years of legal abortions sanctioned by the SC. I am an advocate of "compromise," but what you are suggesting is not one.

Thanks for responding. I am open to suggestions. What sort of compromise would you support?

[TSherbs]

If it were possible to come to a sense of compromise that would allow free birth control and in the situations of rape, incest, or life, abortion would be available.

Having no legal elective abortion available at any stage of pregnancy (except for victims of rape, etc) is not a "compromise" after 50 years of legal abortions sanctioned by the SC. I am an advocate of "compromise," but what you are suggesting is not one.

Thanks for responding. I am open to suggestions. What sort of compromise would you support?

up to 15 weeks, abortion on demand (in other words, our present circumstance is already the compromise that has been worked out)

[Chuck Naill]

If it were possible to come to a sense of compromise that would allow free birth control and in the situations of rape, incest, or life, abortion would be available.

Having no legal elective abortion available at any stage of pregnancy (except for victims of rape, etc) is not a "compromise" after 50 years of legal abortions sanctioned by the SC. I am an advocate of "compromise," but what you are suggesting is not one.

Thanks for responding. I am open to suggestions. What sort of compromise would you support?

up to 15 weeks, abortion on demand (in other words, our present circumstance is already the compromise that has been worked out)

And I am not being argumentative, but have you seen a 15 week old fetus aka "little one"/Latin?

"Your baby now measures over 5 inches. They are the roughly the size of an orange. They are gaining weight and now weigh around 3 ounces.

The fetus is starting to experience light and sound for the first time.

The bones in its ears will be developing for the first time, and the fetus will be able to hear the sounds of your heart, digestive system, and voice. Even though the eyes of the fetus will remain closed, it will be able to sense and respond to light.

Week 15 will also see the fetus begin use of their arms and legs. Over the coming weeks, you may notice kicking and fidgeting.

A fetus will also be developing its grip at this stage and will be able to suck its thumb along with squinting and grimacing."

[TSherbs]

I am well aware of the stage of the fetus at that point. That's my compromise. I am not here to argue. You asked, I answered.

[Chuck Naill]

I am attempting to respond to your several previous posts. You said mine was no compromise. I gave you an opportunity to provide your compromise. I am not here to argue as well, but ending the life of a 15 week old fetus, does not feel like a compromise to me, based on the appearance and characteristics of a child at that stage. Maybe it does to you. I'll post a picture for those less informed of the stages.


The argument for abortion is two one sided. Abortion is what it is and Kermit Gosnell appalled many that took the time to see what he did. I would add that a female should be able to receive enough information to provide an informed consent.


As before, I am for the taxpayer providing free contraception and allowing a woman to have an abortion for her health, rape, incest, and other reasons possibly.

Not trying to be graffic. Maybe I should post a motorcycle ER trama or COVID 19 ICU photo to promote safe driving and vaccines.

[Chip]

I do enjoy a good verbal tussle, but get tired of screechy insults, ducking and dodging, faith-based BS, and trumperies.

That is, in this context I lack a worthy opponent. Alas!

[TSherbs]

One problem is that the Pro Life movement is being mischaracterized.

Mischaracterized how? I understand the legal movement to be about eliminating abortion on demand (which has been eliminated) and now more recently as an effort to restrict access even more (down to 15 weeks, which also succeeded), and then combine with an effort to move conservative justices onto the SC (which has succeeded) and then to try to overturn Roe (which appears to have succeeded). This is how the pro-life movement has been characterized for decades, and they never denied it.

Do you see any part of this a mischaracterization?

I have also read of pro-life legislators attempting to introduce laws defining the start of life and personhood at the moment of conception. This, I would characterize, has been an attempt by prolifers to begin the process of criminalizing and outlawing all forms of termination of pregnancy, including pharmacological. Is this a mischaracterization of those attempts at establishing new laws?

Chuck?

[Chuck Naill]

I’m confused by the last two responses. Rather than comment, explain yourselves.

[TSherbs]

You wrote that people have "mischaracterized" the pro-life movement. I am asking you to explain how you think that they have been mischaracterized.

[Chuck Naill]

You wrote that people have "mischaracterized" the pro-life movement. I am asking you to explain how you think that they have been mischaracterized.

The Pro Life Movement has been characterized as religious based. The idea that the unborn is a person has been misrepresented as a religious view. As I mentioned before, Scot Peterson was found guilty of murdering both his wife and unborn child.

We also now know a new DNA is present in the fertilized egg. This is science and not religion based.

In these conversations, the fetus are mostly ignored. Perhaps the Pro Life community has accomplshed an education for society that has been taught by the Pro Choice community that the fetus early on is a clump of cells.

My problem with the Pro Life community is you don't hear much about contraception, maybe this has a faith based component. Again, if you and your partner don't want to have children, there are better methods than abortion.

[Bold2013]

The problem with some contraception methods is that they prohibits implantation which would be equivalent to abortion at anytime for those who affirm life begins at conception.

[TSherbs]

You wrote that people have "mischaracterized" the pro-life movement. I am asking you to explain how you think that they have been mischaracterized.

The Pro Life Movement has been characterized as religious based. The idea that the unborn is a person has been misrepresented as a religious view. As I mentioned before, Scot Peterson was found guilty of murdering both his wife and unborn child.

We also now know a new DNA is present in the fertilized egg. This is science and not religion based.

In these conversations, the fetus are mostly ignored. Perhaps the Pro Life community has accomplshed an education for society that has been taught by the Pro Choice community that the fetus early on is a clump of cells.

My problem with the Pro Life community is you don't hear much about contraception, maybe this has a faith based component. Again, if you and your partner don't want to have children, there are better methods than abortion.

The core (base) of the pro-life movement in politics and efforts to change the law is mostly based in religious beliefs. But of course, not *only* religious beliefs.

[TSherbs]

The problem with some contraception methods is that they prohibits implantation which would be equivalent to abortion at anytime for those who affirm life begins at conception.

1) "Life" does not begin at conception. The gametes are just as "alive" as the zygote.

2) Natural menses in women destroys thousands and thousands (I can't remember the estimated number now) of fertilized eggs a year. This has been demonstrated and estimated statistically. In other words, most couples who practice unprotected sex (rhythm method or natural family planning) actually create fertilized eggs but do so so close to menses that they then destroy the fertilized egg/embryo through the the female's menstruation. In other words, they enjoy the benefit of the killing of the new "person" (not a word that I would use) through the natural bleeding process of the female. Heartless killers! (I wouldn't call them killers, but perhaps you will).

[Bold2013]

I’m not trying to argue (not smart enough to put up a good fight).

Just saying why many pro-lifers are not on the contraception train.

[Chuck Naill]

I read once that during the Obama years abortions decreased due to free contraception.

Bold mention abstinence. I’ve read that oral and anal sex are more popular since it does not lead to pregnancy.

Unwanted pregnancy and unwanted babies is a problem with no easy answers. There is no way most people don’t recoil from seeing pictures of an aborted late term fetus aka “little one “.

Our 27 week twins turn 11 today. I still can’t believe they made it. Most born so early don’t make it unscathed. Life is precious and I don’t want to not do all I can to allow life to happen.