Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

[Chuck Naill]

As usual, we are discussing something else. I hope you are enjoying your exchanges with those that agree.

[TSherbs]

Chuck, I honestly don't know what you even mean now. Other people who agree? No one else is posting here.

This now feels like you're playing some coy game of rope-a-dope.

Have a good night.

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck, I honestly don't know what you even mean now. Other people who agree? No one else is posting here.

This now feels like you're playing some coy game of rope-a-dope.

Have a good night.

Ted, I respect your opinion you choose, but it doesn't mean you are correct in your thinking. I posted what the politician said about dead abused children and made the connection to how we have grown used to devaluing human life. I still believe this to be true not only for the young, but also the aged. When you get used to ending human life in one way, our collective national soul is seared in other areas as well.

[TSherbs]

...When you get used to ending human life in one way, our collective national soul is seared in other areas as well.

I don't disagree. My point is that we became used to sacrificing fellow humanity thousands of years ago. My point is that abortion does not worsen this; humanity has had a callous social streak from the beginning.

You seem to say that legal abortion worsens our treatment toward each other. I don't see how any evidence shows this to be true. We even execute fewer people now in this sountry, our social safety net is much broader, and we have all sorts of anti-hate and anti-discrimination laws. We are finally robustly prosecuting priests who abused children. We know longer have the same sorts of "insane asylums" and we are working to curtail drug addiction and alcoholism. Abortion rates and murder rates have fallen over the last 30 years. More women work, more women are in leadership, more women are free from the confines of unhappy and/or abusive marriages.

Just where do you see our mistreatment of each other worsening in any broad scale since 1973?

[Chuck Naill]

...When you get used to ending human life in one way, our collective national soul is seared in other areas as well.

I don't disagree. My point is that we became used to sacrificing fellow humanity thousands of years ago. My point is that abortion does not worsen this; humanity has had a callous social streak from the beginning.

You seem to say that legal abortion worsens our treatment toward each other. I don't see how any evidence shows this to be true. We even execute fewer people now in this sountry, our social safety net is much broader, and we have all sorts of anti-hate and anti-discrimination laws. We are finally robustly prosecuting priests who abused children. We know longer have the same sorts of "insane asylums" and we are working to curtail drug addiction and alcoholism. Abortion rates and murder rates have fallen over the last 30 years. More women work, more women are in leadership, more women are free from the confines of unhappy and/or abusive marriages.

Just where do you see our mistreatment of each other worsening in any broad scale since 1973?

I think abortion forms a calluses on how we think of life. We can become less concerned. When I hear pro abortion advocates talk, the unborn is never mentioned. It is like the human unborn does not exist and does not suffer death.

How could an elected official form the thoughts in his mind that he vocalized regarding the death of abused children? How is that even possible?

Yesterday Secretary Blinken mentioned the Ukranian people who have been moved to Russia, one child of four months. What ideology allows anyone to think this is acceptable? This is such a disregard toward others.

I mentioned this before, who would have liked to have been aborted at 10 weeks gestation.

[TSherbs]

]

... When I hear pro abortion advocates talk, the unborn is never mentioned. It is like the human unborn does not exist and does not suffer death.

But Chuck, this isn't even true on this thread. You've said this before, and I denied it then, too.

Of course the unborn are mentioned. Frequently! Of course the unborn "suffer death." Every doctor who performs abortions, and every woman who gets one knows this. And all the rest of us know this.

This conversation is now going in unproductive circles.

[TSherbs]

From a different angle: this is an example of what I mean about abortion being a compromise among competing societal considerations of importance:

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...-jail/2981306/

When the law becomes extreme (out of balance), you get law suits like this one. And many more of various kinds will result from stating, legally, that an individual human life with constitutional protections begins at conception. This woman's case is absurd, from a common rational perspective. But the extremist law change in Florida is what has made the legal basis of this claim possible. The woman now has a case with this defense!

Nice going, Florida!

[Chuck Naill]

I wouldn't say "nice going". The state does recognize the unborn child as a person who is incarcerated because of two poor choices by her mother, to become pregnant and to commit second degree (intentional) murder. Two humans are suffering as a result.

[Chuck Naill]

However, there is much hope for both mother and child available. All is not lost.

[Chuck Naill]

Another interesting situation.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...tive-reduction

[TSherbs]

I wouldn't say "nice going". The state does recognize ....

I think you missed my sarcasm.

[TSherbs]

Chuck, do you feel that every pregnancy is a "poor choice" by the mother?

[TSherbs]

...Yesterday Secretary Blinken mentioned the Ukranian people who have been moved to Russia, one child of four months. What ideology allows anyone to think this is acceptable? This is such a disregard toward others.

I forgot to answer this question.

Answer: An ideology headed by a Christian and supported by a Christian church.

Putin was baptized Christian (Russian Orthodox) and raised by a devout Christian mother. He lost his faith in his early adulthood, then refound found it in his early 40s. He goes to church, supports the Russian Orthodox church and has stated it should have more of a role in society. He has called athiests evil pagans, etc. His religion supports his sexist and homophobic policies and postures. He is his country's equivalent of a white nationalist, and he is a Christian believer who also believes that God has chosen greatness for a bigger Russia (like our version of Manifest Destiny).

So, the answer to your question is this kind of "ideology": white nationalist Christian. We have the same problem with some Christians in power in this country, too. I really don't think you have to look outside of Christianity to find the familiar faces of every kind of evil ever perpetrated upon humanity. Russians aren't some kind of evil "other": they are a reflection of aspects of Christians everywhere, since the beginning.

[Chuck Naill]

I have looked outside, Ted. Do you have a specific question?

[TSherbs]

... Do you have a specific question?

What? No. I answered your question.

[TSherbs]

Chuck, do you feel that every pregnancy is a "poor choice" by the mother?

Actually, I did ask you this question above.

[Chuck Naill]

No, I do not, but in the context of the jailed person for which we are discussing, yes, because now a child will begin their life in prison. I didn't understand why you asked the question, Ted.

[Chuck Naill]

... Do you have a specific question?

What? No. I answered your question.

You wrote, " I really don't think you have to look outside of Christianity to find the familiar faces of every kind of evil ever perpetrated upon humanity." What was your point? That only Christians perpetrate evil?

I remember you said you had a background in "christianity". Do you think there is anything you've seen the church do, that is evil, that is consistent with the teachings of Jesus? I do not. I think the church has been politized and started a thread to discuss.

The scriptures teach the disciple to love their neighbors. Therefore, something happened along the way and these teaching were ignored in favor of something else. Do you personally disagree with loving your neighbor as you love yourself. Do you have an issue with doing what it best for your neighbor at your own expense. I might have misunderstood you, but it may be that your concern is not with Jesus, but with religion. Am I correct?

if Jesus were here today, his message would be the same, change your mind because the realm of God's effective will is available to everyone and anyone. He would sum up the Ten Commandments as love of others, treating them as you'd want to be treated, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Just think about what would happen today if these concepts were adopted for one day.

All of the people the political church excludes would be welcome. They would be invited to come as they are. This is why the incarcerated pregnant woman is in a good place, as is also her child. There is hope.

Once I was discussing Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. The member pointed out that Jesus told the woman go and sin no more. Does anyone actually think Jesus thought she could stop? Has this member stopped sinning? The point of the teaching was that she was not condemned. She was welcomed. For many, this is good news.

[TSherbs]

No, I do not, but in the context of the jailed person for which we are discussing, yes, because now a child will begin their life in prison. I didn't understand why you asked the question, Ted.

I asked it because you have a pattern in the past of blaming the woman, especially if she is unmarried or young, for her pregnancy. "Poor choice" has been a refrain of yours. I have commented on this before, too. That is why. And here it came up again.

[TSherbs]

... Do you have a specific question?

What? No. I answered your question.

You wrote, " I really don't think you have to look outside of Christianity to find the familiar faces of every kind of evil ever perpetrated upon humanity." What was your point? That only Christians perpetrate evil?

No, of course not "only Christians" commit evil.

Your question that started this contained the unspoken presumption that you were not familiar with whatever "ideology" (your word) produced a policy of removing the children for adoption from a war zone. You seemed flummoxed by some "ideology" unfamiliar to you that would produce this practice. I thought about the question and the assumption and remembered that Putin is not only the leader of a country but also a professed born again Christian. The irony of this struck me so hard that I answered your question with the additional information that Putin's "ideology" is not so foreign or unfamiliar: he is a sexist, bigoted, white nationalist Christian male in one of the most powerful positions on the planet. This is actually FAMILIAR to us, no? Democracy and Christianity also both promote powerful systemic behaviors that, when they go unchecked, look just like what is happening with those children. Let's remember, for example, that the Nazis got their academic training on eugenics theory from Christian Americans in American universities.

No, evil is not "only" in Christianity. But when mixed with Christian (or any religion's) ideas of exceptionalism and with institutional power, the inherent evil of humanity is amplified and spreads.