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Thread: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

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    Default Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    1. I am pro-life, but I am also pro choice, or more clearly, pro informed consent. I am not convinced Planned Parenthood properly informs.

    2. I have two relatives born at 27 weeks and was a NICU volunteer, where I used to live, for 300 hours. I have recently applied again here.

    3. I am also pro adoption and have an adopted daughter, my relative has three adopted children.

    4. I feel that many in the pro life community have not been pro mother and willing to go beyond being against abortion.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    To answer the title of the thread, undoubtedly "no". We can't even have a civil discussion about a politician whose hue leans to orange.

    But I'll try anyway...

    If you look at things in terms of polar positions, and pendulum swings; you can discern the problem amidst the hyperbole. Sure there will be the "under no circumstances" folks. Their absolutist view pushed the pendulum to Roe v Wade. Not satisfied with that, progressives (or whatever you want to label them) kept pushing the pendulum to "under any circumstance". They got to partial birth abortion, and that was too far.

    So both those types will be here shortly to yell their narrative at each other. I think there is room in the middle, but that means establishing a relatively arbitrary line on what is acceptable to society and what is not. First trimester? Seems reasonable. Congenital defects? Possibly (although that leads to some murky ethics).

    Then where do you go with the origins? Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood? Racist as hell, but strangely ok in today's politics.
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    To answer the title of the thread, undoubtedly "no". We can't even have a civil discussion about a politician whose hue leans to orange.

    But I'll try anyway...

    If you look at things in terms of polar positions, and pendulum swings; you can discern the problem amidst the hyperbole. Sure there will be the "under no circumstances" folks. Their absolutist view pushed the pendulum to Roe v Wade. Not satisfied with that, progressives (or whatever you want to label them) kept pushing the pendulum to "under any circumstance". They got to partial birth abortion, and that was too far.

    So both those types will be here shortly to yell their narrative at each other. I think there is room in the middle, but that means establishing a relatively arbitrary line on what is acceptable to society and what is not. First trimester? Seems reasonable. Congenital defects? Possibly (although that leads to some murky ethics).

    Then where do you go with the origins? Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood? Racist as hell, but strangely ok in today's politics.
    Your attempt is appreciated @dneal. I’ll let this thread simmer to see who posts . Thank you for your post.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Very difficult subject to discuss without flaming someone.

    I'm of the opinion that in the first instance abortion should be an option at the time of confirmation of pregnancy, with a short decision-making time allowed post-confirmation of, for sake of a number, two to four weeks. Under those circumstances, the development of cells and structures is still beneath the threshold for the definition of human whole body life.

    If no decision is made? Then the assumption is that the mother has decided to carry to term and cannot seek abortion later. Controversial I suppose.

    I have to acknowledge that there may be cases where confirmation of pregnancy doesn't occur until several weeks into it. I see these as being dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

    So my opinion would appear to be based on a version of the concept of viability.


    As far as pro-choice is concerned, I am happy to have the mother be the sole decision-maker if she is mentally capable of being so.


    Willing to discuss, not willing to engage with anyone who tramps into the thread shouting 'you're wrong' - because there is no objective right or wrong here as far as I can see.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Very difficult subject to discuss without flaming someone.

    I'm of the opinion that in the first instance abortion should be an option at the time of confirmation of pregnancy, with a short decision-making time allowed post-confirmation of, for sake of a number, two to four weeks. Under those circumstances, the development of cells and structures is still beneath the threshold for the definition of human whole body life.

    If no decision is made? Then the assumption is that the mother has decided to carry to term and cannot seek abortion later. Controversial I suppose.

    I have to acknowledge that there may be cases where confirmation of pregnancy doesn't occur until several weeks into it. I see these as being dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

    So my opinion would appear to be based on a version of the concept of viability.


    As far as pro-choice is concerned, I am happy to have the mother be the sole decision-maker if she is mentally capable of being so.


    Willing to discuss, not willing to engage with anyone who tramps into the thread shouting 'you're wrong' - because there is no objective right or wrong here as far as I can see.
    Thank you EOC. I agree with much. I learned DNA is present very early, perhaps fertilized egg. We know more than when Roe v Wade was discussed.

    What’s the best way to inform the pregnant woman?

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    When I was a cuddler, I held children born at 23 weeks later on.

    Synthetic surfactant became available in the mid 1990’s allowing these premature children to survive.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    My opinion is most firmly rooted in the biomedical model of health, so aligns with the concept of limit of viability - the gestational age at which a prematurely born foetus has a 50% chance of long-term life outside of the womb (using the Wiki definition).

    Religion will no doubt play a central role in the views of some people.


    As for how to inform pregnant women, I am not sure what you mean. Inform them of what? Their condition, their options, the law, where to get support? Can you, Chuck, be a little more specific for me please.


    Edit to add a disclaimer: I am not a father, nor have I ever been a prospective father, so I have no real understanding of how abortion decisions 'feel' or affect a person.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; November 30th, 2021 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ... I think there is room in the middle, but that means establishing a relatively arbitrary line on what is acceptable to society and what is not.
    First, this issue is of such grave importance to the country that it should be settled by federal law (I feel the same way about the death penalty). That various states can have widely divergent laws on this medical practice just shows that the feds need to step in and establish one standard for all.

    It is possible to establish a standard reached through consensus (professional, via doctors) and legal precedent and then enforce that standard through federal law. I hope that the SC will do this, but I do not have great confidence I them.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    ... I think there is room in the middle, but that means establishing a relatively arbitrary line on what is acceptable to society and what is not.
    First, this issue is of such grave importance to the country that it should be settled by federal law (I feel the same way about the death penalty). That various states can have widely divergent laws on this medical practice just shows that the feds need to step in and establish one standard for all.

    It is possible to establish a standard reached through consensus (professional, via doctors) and legal precedent and then enforce that standard through federal law. I hope that the SC will do this, but I do not have great confidence I them.
    Then we have a fundamental difference on how the country is supposed to function. That is not an enumerated power given to the federal government. Most federal laws aren't, and have been let in the back door through a bad SC decision using the interstate commerce clause. See: Wickard v Filburn.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    Then we have a fundamental difference on how the country is supposed to function.
    Yup

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    As for how to inform pregnant women, I am not sure what you mean. Inform them of what? Their condition, their options, the law, where to get support? Can you, Chuck, be a little more specific for me please.
    I just mean an objective counseling as you would with any medical proceedure pros and cons.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I am posting this because it happened in the past ten years. Kemit Gosnell operated an abortion clinic and performed late term abortions. There are citizens who think abortions are being performed legally and therefore ethically. Maybe, maybe not.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Well time to be that guy…

    Life starts at conception. Identity even sooner. So then the killing of a human must be taken very seriously. There are true medical situations that would take a mother’s life before the baby reach current viability. Those medical issues are justified. Other than that I am hard pressed to concede a reason for the killing of innocent life.

    Interestingly someone is significantly more likely to be killed by abortion than to die of covid 19.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Well time to be that guy…

    Life starts at conception. Identity even sooner. So then the killing of a human must be taken very seriously. There are true medical situations that would take a mother’s life before the baby reach current viability. Those medical issues are justified. Other than that I am hard pressed to concede a reason for the killing of innocent life.

    Interestingly someone is significantly more likely to be killed by abortion than to die of covid 19.
    Regardless of your position, thank you for posting @bold2013.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Well time to be that guy…

    Life starts at conception. Identity even sooner. So then the killing of a human must be taken very seriously. There are true medical situations that would take a mother’s life before the baby reach current viability. Those medical issues are justified. Other than that I am hard pressed to concede a reason for the killing of innocent life.

    Interestingly someone is significantly more likely to be killed by abortion than to die of covid 19.
    I agree that life begins at conception.

    The taking of human life is morally justified by society in some cases, and not in others. War? Repugnant, but morally justified. Death penalty? Morally justified by some and not others. Euthanasia (a la Kevorkian)? Same. Abortion? well, that's this topic.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    The 1973 ruling hinged on whether the fetus was a person, I've read the trans script between Justus Potter and the lawyers interaction. Since DNA is a maker for personhood and the fertilized egg is a separate DNA, this can establish personhood even if immature or developing. I know this only complicates the discussion. It is not an easy place to be if you are pregnant and don't want to be. If my statements are incorrect, please post how. Again, thank you for your participation and for keeping it civil.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Well this case might change how we deal with fertility clinics which have thousands of fertilized eggs on ice.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Well this case might change how we deal with fertility clinics which have thousands of fertilized eggs on ice.
    Good point.
    Be your own tenth man.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Life starts at conception.
    No, it does not. Gametes are "alive" prior to joining into a new zygote, which also is "alive". There is no "dead" and then "alive" in the process of reproduction. All stages, all phases, are "living," or "alive." All living individuals come from already alive other individuals (or cells). In IVF there are forms of stasis, but all the material had to come from already living persons (at some point). "Life" is an unbroken chain.

    I'll write a longer response from my computer later.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    TS. I think you know what we are getting at with the phrase but I look forward to what you may add and how it might shape the conversation.

    Edited for manners sake
    Last edited by Bold2013; December 1st, 2021 at 03:39 PM.

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