Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

[Chuck Naill]

Medicaid funding is a factor.

[TSherbs]

Medicaid funding is a factor.

How? The fall of Roe v Wade had nothing to do with Medicaid.


Furthermore, the recent laws have been about severely curtailing and/or criminalizing abortion services, not about defunding, or limiting taxpayer contributions. These aren't "opt out" laws in terms of funding. These are "no-person-can-receive-this-service-regardless-of-how-it-is-paid-for" laws.

Have I missed something?

[Chuck Naill]

Medicaid funding is a factor.

How? The fall of Roe v Wade had nothing to do with Medicaid.


Furthermore, the recent laws have been about severely curtailing and/or criminalizing abortion services, not about defunding, or limiting taxpayer contributions. These aren't "opt out" laws in terms of funding. These are "no-person-can-receive-this-service-regardless-of-how-it-is-paid-for" laws.

Have I missed something?

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/healt...-for-abortion/

[TSherbs]

Medicaid funding is a factor.

How? The fall of Roe v Wade had nothing to do with Medicaid.


Furthermore, the recent laws have been about severely curtailing and/or criminalizing abortion services, not about defunding, or limiting taxpayer contributions. These aren't "opt out" laws in terms of funding. These are "no-person-can-receive-this-service-regardless-of-how-it-is-paid-for" laws.

Have I missed something?

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/healt...-for-abortion/

Yes, where it is legal, not all abortions have been covered by insurance. This has been true since 1973.

But this is a moot point in states were abortion is now effectively banned.

[TSherbs]

WaPo article analyzing the mess that the GOP now finds itself in over abortion: they've run on severe anti-abortuon platforms, but their constituents don't want it. Oh, the quandary:

(gift)
https://wapo.st/3npaJbU

[Chuck Naill]

Not really. No one runs out to celebrate an abortion. So, for all the noise, little is known by the general public about post abortion PASS. Do abortion providers discuss possible post abortion PTSD? If so, do they provide trained counselors?

I never hear anything about the death of the human baby when the Pro-Abortion people are interviewed. You would think it was an appendectomy.

"Nevertheless, any event that causes trauma can indeed result in PTSD, and abortion is no exception. A woman can be of sound and solid mind when she makes a choice to terminate a pregnancy, but it is never an easy decision. Even when it is the right decision, there is sometimes a level of conflict that needs to be addressed so that the woman can be at peace with her choice. Believing that PASS exists does not mean that one does not believe in a woman’s right to choose; it simply means that one believes in supportive and constructive counseling around the trauma symptoms."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-does-it-exist

[TSherbs]

...So, for all the noise, little is known by the general public about post abortion PASS.

First, this is not an accepted diagnositic term or condition by the American Psychiatric Association. The lack of knowledge of PASS is in part due to the fact that it is not an accepted diagnosis.

PTSD is accepted. And I don't know many people (if any at all) who don't know what PTSD is or who would deny that the trauma of an abortion could result in the symptoms of PTSD. Just look at the possible traumatic responses to miscarriages. And I don't know anyone who opposes supporting women who need it after an abortion. Who says no to that??

[TSherbs]

FDA staffers raise concerns about making Perigo Co abortion pill available as over the counter (nonprescription).

https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...ll-2023-05-05/

[Chuck Naill]

RU-486 can be reversed.

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/pro...l-be-reversed/

[TSherbs]

SC considering 6-week abortion ban: more extremist absurdity.

Balkanization continues.

https://apnews.com/da99a7f6c4d27297020bc2622c065345

[Chuck Naill]

At the heart of this topic is the idea that we have a right to do with our bodies as we see fit. Where it is a male pressuring a pregnant female or the female, herself. While we surely can protect and nurture out bodies, we didn't create it and can do little to maintain or feed it without help. There will probably come a time when we can no longer care for it or complete our Activities of Daily Living (ADL).

For the disciple/apprentice of Jesus, our bodies are not our own. It is the temple of the HS. We are the last people on Earth who can say our bodies are our own.

[Lady Onogaro]

In the South, we women pretty clear who controls our bodies--it's the state legislature.

[TSherbs]

In the South, we women pretty clear who controls our bodies--it's the state legislature.

Yes, and the South Carolina legislature has now added itself to the list, tightening its control.

[Chuck Naill]

Many or most people struggle with controlling their own bodies. If they did, unwanted pregnancy would not occur, drunk driving would not occur, mass shootings would not occur, murder, cheating, tax evasion, or bank robberies would not occur. So, when I read or hear people say someone else controls their body, I'm skeptical they properly understand the role they play.

[Lady Onogaro]

I guess I misspoke in that the Louisiana legislature seems to think that somehow women are in control of their bodies in the cases of being victims of rape, incest, and miscarriage. They seem to think women are either whores or liars. So there are no exceptions for abortion in our state. And so our Attorney General's response when doctors ask if an abortion is warranted in the case of a dead baby in utero or a miscarriage is "do it and see if I jail you." In Texas it's "do it and see if we anyone sues you." And since anyone can sue a doctor for performing an abortion, whether you are guilty of it or not, the physician or her insurance company will have to pay to defend the physician. Thus, doctors are getting out of the obstetrical end of women's health care or moving out of our states, or they are refusing to even talk about necessary abortions, or they are moving to other states where they can practice without worrying about being sued or jailed.

[TSherbs]

I guess I misspoke in that the Louisiana legislature seems to think that somehow women are in control of their bodies in the cases of being victims of rape, incest, and miscarriage. They seem to think women are either whores or liars. So there are no exceptions for abortion in our state. And so our Attorney General's response when doctors ask if an abortion is warranted in the case of a dead baby in utero or a miscarriage is "do it and see if I jail you." In Texas it's "do it and see if we anyone sues you." And since anyone can sue a doctor for performing an abortion, whether you are guilty of it or not, the physician or her insurance company will have to pay to defend the physician. Thus, doctors are getting out of the obstetrical end of women's health care or moving out of our states, or they are refusing to even talk about necessary abortions, or they are moving to other states where they can practice without worrying about being sued or jailed.

Yeah, this is what I have meant by the "balkanization" of America. Then it was brought to my attention that some folks think that this is a long-term electoral college strategy: to drive liberals out of enough states to tip the electoral college in Republican favor (since the GOP has not won the national vote for President since 2004. Eighten years and counting. And in the last 30 years, only one GOP candidate has won the majority of the popular vote). The GOP has to come up with another strategy, and apparently they may be working on one that drives progressives/liberals out of their states, cement GOP control through redestricting, enact tougher voting restrictions, stack the Supreme Court with justices friendly to state power and autonomy (this has been accomplished), and go all-in for using the structure of our Electoral College to consolidate power.

[Lady Onogaro]

Seems more likely that it will break up the states into independent countries with alliances with like-minded legislatures. I have been pretty pessimistic about the U.S. holding together as a country for a long time now. The folks behind the media (oligarchs? moneyed men?) seem intent in driving a wedge deep enough into the country to split it.

[dneal]

Seems more likely that it will break up the states into independent countries with alliances with like-minded legislatures. I have been pretty pessimistic about the U.S. holding together as a country for a long time now. The folks behind the media (oligarchs? moneyed men?) seem intent in driving a wedge deep enough into the country to split it.

That is a concern. It seems that many States had 100% no abortion laws, enacted in response to Roe v Wade. Much was symbolic, hinging on the overturning of something not really expected to be overturned. Much was in response to the Pro side pushing the pendulum too far, with essentially a no-questions-asked abortion on demand at any time expectation.

As the pro-side discovered, getting the policies you campaigned on isn't always a good thing. Same thing will happen to the Anti-side now. Problems are best left unsolved, so we can keep campaigning on them! Lotsa money in it, don'tcha know... (your oligarch notion, but I like "kleptocrat").

The right seems amenable to a reasonable compromise. See: Rep Nancy Mace, for example.

[Chip]

Frilly dresses and white supremacy: welcome to the weird, frightening world of ‘trad wives’

No longer a far-right subculture, the movement’s anti-feminist tenets are now inserting themselves into mainstream western politics



Sian Norris
Wed 31 May 2023

“In some more traditional relationships (but not all) the man disciplines the woman either physically (like spanking) or with things like writing lines and standing in the corner,” one woman advises another on the Red Pill Women forum, an online community of rightwing, anti-feminist women.

Welcome to the weird and frightening world of trad wives, where women spurn modern, egalitarian values to dedicate their lives to the service of their husbands. My research into this far-right subculture began during the writing of my book on the far right and reproductive rights. I was curious to learn how the movement, determined to reduce women to reproductive vessels to aid white male supremacy, recruited women to its cause. The answer was a toxic combination of anti-feminism, white supremacy, normalised abuse and a desire to return to an imagined past.

Trad wives can be traced back to the Red Pill Women forum that was set up in 2013. According to research from Julia Ebner in 2020, 30,000 women identified as Red Pill Women or trad wives. As with most far-right trends, most of them appear to be in the US, but due to the networked nature of the modern far right, trends that start stateside don’t remain there. Interviews I conducted revealed that the British far right encourages its women to be trad, with women attending nationalist conferences such as the annual Patriotic Alternative conference, and making a name for themselves on the far-right infosphere.

The subculture shares aesthetics and values across the Atlantic. Long, floral dresses are the norm, idealising a mythic past of feminine modesty. Women should be covered up, as their bodies are just for their husbands. A woman’s role is to stay at home, serving her spouse domestically and sexually, while her partner goes to work to support her. Men should “discipline” women.

Unsurprisingly, they are anti-feminist, with the far right recruiting women to the trad lifestyle by claiming feminism has failed to make them happy. While not a trad wife herself, “alt-right” influencer Lauren Southern shot to fame by claiming feminism taught women “to work 9–5 and drink wine every night until their ovaries dry up”.

And, of course, they’re white. One meme I encountered on Telegram during my research summed up a good trad wife as being “knowledgable about her European roots” and who “loves her family, race and culture”. Leading the tribe is far-right influencer Ayla Stewart, who shot to social media fame when her notorious “white baby challenge” went viral after she declared: “As a mother of six, I challenge families to have as many white babies as I have contributed.”

The motive behind the white baby challenge, and much of trad wife culture, is a fear of the so-called “great replacement” – a baseless conspiracy theory that believes white people are being “replaced” by migrant people from the global south, while feminists repress the white birthrate via abortion rights. To defeat this so-called “white genocide”, as one Stewart fan expressed it, far-right women need to “Make White Babies Great Again!” On far-right Telegram channels, I found posters following her lead. One far-right woman posted she planned to have six babies, as that was above the “optimum replacement rate”.

What Stewart and her acolytes’ examples show is how the trad lifestyle is fixed to two essential components of fascist ideology that govern the modern far right: white supremacy and patriarchy. What’s concerning is how these aims are becoming more and more influential as the global far right pushes to overturn laws protecting women from gender-based violence and reproductive rights, and their ideas gain traction among mainstream rightwing political parties.

During his time in the White House, Donald Trump weakened protections for victims of sexual harassment and domestic abuse, while Spain’s far-right Vox party is vocal about its desire to overturn laws protecting women from gender-based violence.

The reversal of Roe v Wade met the far-right demands that women be removed from the public sphere into the domestic, and be pinned to reproduction. Poland’s far-right government tightened its already draconian abortion ban. Far-right leaders in Hungary and Italy continue to contest the right to abortion, and in Slovakia the far-right L’SNS party has repeatedly tried to bring in a ban. At the recent National Conservatism conference in the UK, Conservative MPs joined writers and activists who combined anti-migrant speeches with those urging women to have more babies.

Far from trad wives being a niche subculture confined to internet chatrooms, the movement’s core tenets have gripped mainstream politics – and women and their allies should stop at nothing to defend their hard-won rights.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...inist-politics

[TSherbs]

I appreciate your having posted this, Chip.

My skin is crawling from the creepiness after hearing of such a lifestyle built on this level of repression, denial, and even abuse.