Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

[TSherbs]

Yeah, I did not know how much these justices can be wined and dined and granted access to. Spooky, really. And they don't have to reveal any accounting of the gifts/perks?

Alito attended a World Series game this year. The network pointed it out.

Who bought him his hot dog?

[Chuck Naill]

Yeah, I did not know how much these justices can be wined and dined and granted access to. Spooky, really. And they don't have to reveal any accounting of the gifts/perks?

Alito attended a World Series game this year. The network pointed it out.

Who bought him his hot dog?

Don’t know but the Phillies blamed him for the loss. 😂😂

[TSherbs]

I blame him for a lot of shit!

[Chuck Naill]

How many see abortion as a political contrast rather than a moral contrast?

[kazoolaw]

To return to the original question, "No."

[TSherbs]

No one here has said anything like that. My answer is "yes, we can."

[Chuck Naill]

There will be raped a 10-year-old for which an abortion needs to be a legal option and the ones responsible prosecuted, https://jezebel.com/man-arrested-for...d-t-1849174527

There are medically necessary abortions. Nature aborts.

When I read that a woman becomes pregnant unexpectedly by her husband, I have to ask how it could have occurred. Did she have birth control available? Was the husband just negligent?

I think a conversation about choice and responsibility enters into this debate. What I've never found useful is the religious response. However, it has been religious folk that have provided real information about what abortion is and its impact. NYT opinion writer, Ross Douthat, wrote four op-eds on the topic recently. He looked at the impact that abortion has on both males and female sexuality and who it changes the traditional roles.

If religious folk were even a better example of sexual purity or responsibility, perhaps they may be a better example for others to consider. If the only thing you can do is point fingers at pregnant women getting pregnant and seeking abortions, you're easily ignored.

When you see seniors shacking up, what example does that provide their grandchildren?

In Douthat's book I just completed; he discusses celibacy. I would add a platonic relationship for those who are not married. I think marriage forces, at least some, measure of having to work through relationship difficulties. Once sex is involved, it is easy to walk away. Take responsibility away from the male renders him less than what he would naturally do with child rearing. At least theoretically, a platonic relationship does not necessarily lead to sex. The problem is you have two people who can have very different and contrasting desires and purposes.

[TSherbs]

Looks like the privacy protection of a woman's body and health decisions continues to have some sway in the courts: South Carolina 6-Week Ban Struck Down

[kazoolaw]

No one here has said anything like that. My answer is "yes, we can."

"I support the legal permissibility of abortion/pregnancy termination for any reason before the medically-accepted age of 'viability...'"
Someone did.

[TSherbs]

You don't see any difference in civility of tone between those two passages?

[kazoolaw]

"Civility of tone" to advocate killing? Cold blooded.

[TSherbs]

I'll take that as a "no"

[TSherbs]

Although it is a different topic, I believe that it is possible, for some, to have a civil discussion from opposite points of view about all manner of moral positions in both secular and religious issues, even the most mortal ones. I read the Catholic encyclical on the morality of war, for example, and found it sincere, respectful, and civil. I disagreed with several aspects of it, but I considered it a civil piece of discourse on a challenging ethical topic that contains polar positions that don't always get expressed in civil tones.

[TSherbs]

I've read very civil discussions also of the practice of enhanced interrogation and capital punishment and corporal punishment. I've also read some uncivil ones. Depends often on the moods and mix of the folks involved. (Unsurprisingly)

[TSherbs]

@Chuck, I just came across this:

Alabama Attorney General says that women in the state can be prosecuted for taking abortifacient pills:

https://www.al.com/news/2023/01/wome...y-general.html

[kazoolaw]

I'll take that as a "no"

Correct. If I had to select a single word to describe the tone "glib" would rank high among choices.

[TSherbs]

I'll take that as a "no"

Correct. If I had to select a single word to describe the tone "glib" would rank high among choices.

I was trying to be precise and "legal", actually. I am untrained, obviously.

[TSherbs]

Kaz, I wonder if you would explain the tonal intent of the billboard post you made above?

[Chuck Naill]

Although it is a different topic, I believe that it is possible, for some, to have a civil discussion from opposite points of view about all manner of moral positions in both secular and religious issues, even the most mortal ones. I read the Catholic encyclical on the morality of war, for example, and found it sincere, respectful, and civil. I disagreed with several aspects of it, but I considered it a civil piece of discourse on a challenging ethical topic that contains polar positions that don't always get expressed in civil tones.

I do agree. I see several factors that complicate the discussion. Human sexuality, out of wedlock sex, teenage sex are the result of the sexual revolution, advances in birth control, and a more secular mindset. While extramarital sex is now accepted, even adultery, and many sexual partners, when a pregnancy occurs, it is like everyone is caught off guard. Without the marriage contract, both male and female roles are ignored or put out of mind.

Homosexuality among males is rarely discussed, but since we are discussing privacy and bodily control it's worth mentioning. I remember a lecture in the mid 1980's where promiscuity descriptions were defined. For heterosexual males greater than 25 sexual partners defined promiscuity. Among homosexual males greater than 500. I have not reviewed any recent numbers. Things may have changed, but the recent Monkey Pox outbreak among homosexuals is understandable. Is having many sexual partners a matter of control over one's body? Is it a matter of choice?

While the arguments are pro-female in the sense that she should have control over her body, she at the same time cannot say she had no control in having sex, rape and incest excluded of course. The male cannot plead guiltless and also his right to offspring is not even a consideration in these discussions. What he wants doesn't matter.

The physical and emotional effects of abortion are rarely discussed. What happens after an abortion? There is no way a woman or man can ever forget going through an abortion. There will be many "what if" moments, and guilt over the motivation to end the life of the child because of inconvenience, money, or other factors.

What is not helpful is the usual drivel heard from religious folk and the reason is they are no longer considered a moral center. They have lost their moral center and it is partly because of what @tsherbs shared about their confusion of what constitutes the gospel. This allows the secular mentality to flourish so that the whole conversation becomes about female privacy and control over her body. Plan Parenthood will not discuss post abortion effects or encourage keeping the child options.

Anyway, my position is the true gospel message, as @tsherb's link explained, is followed/accepted will provide a community and a moral center for many of human complexities. This is why I say that the church has lost its place and may never recover. Not until it removes the beam in its own eye can it expect to remove the speck in the eyes of its fellow human beings.

“Repent (change your mind) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins _ (Peter said to those who had crucified Jesus), and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And the fruit of that spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Notice it is fruit, not fruits. With these people become more civil. These are to be experienced in ones life. With these in place in a community a more empathetic (because they know they are not without sin) and later compassionate approach to abortion will take place. For me this is how Jesus was able to say, neither do I condemn you, go, sin no more. And what is sin if not missing Godly intent for humanity.

[Chuck Naill]

Something from C.S. Lewis,
" There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilization — these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendors."

Abortion treats the unborn as the life of a gnat. This is purely secular or modernist thinking. It is a story we've been told and believed to be true.

Gnats are inconvenient. They get in the way. Some cause the need for a doctor visit. They can cause us pain.