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Thread: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

  1. #501
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    These two examples say that these preborn children to have the same rights as fully functional humans.
    The "same rights"? No. Not even all living US citizens have the same rights. We have rights that vary by age, by state, by gender.

    But yes, some states have put in laws to punish perpetrators for fetal deaths (some) while committing other felonies. That's not the same as granting a fetus the "same rights" as a born, functioning person. And only in some states. There are states *trying* to grant unborn children--even the fertilized ovum--legal personhood and certain rights (usually beginning with a right to life), but this has been an uphill battle because of all the legal quandaries such a move would create.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    These two examples say that these preborn children to have the same rights as fully functional humans.
    The "same rights"? No. Not even all living US citizens have the same rights. We have rights that vary by age, by state, by gender.

    But yes, some states have put in laws to punish perpetrators for fetal deaths (some) while committing other felonies. That's not the same as granting a fetus the "same rights" as a born, functioning person. And only in some states. There are states *trying* to grant unborn children--even the fertilized ovum--legal personhood and certain rights (usually beginning with a right to life), but this has been an uphill battle because of all the legal quandaries such a move would create.
    Our founding documents say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    This speaks to the moral center provided by their concepts of God that humans are equal and endowed by their Creator with rights which include, life. If a life is a creation of God, the unborn is not less.

    Now that we live in a more relative mind set, we have moved away from the idea that we are a creation. Maybe even for some less than a gnat.

    In all of this, I am not attempting to change anyone's mind. We all must live within the perspectives for which we decide.
    Abraham Lincoln used this language which had the slave in mind.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    These two examples say that these preborn children to have the same rights as fully functional humans.
    The "same rights"? No. Not even all living US citizens have the same rights. We have rights that vary by age, by state, by gender.

    But yes, some states have put in laws to punish perpetrators for fetal deaths (some) while committing other felonies. That's not the same as granting a fetus the "same rights" as a born, functioning person. And only in some states. There are states *trying* to grant unborn children--even the fertilized ovum--legal personhood and certain rights (usually beginning with a right to life), but this has been an uphill battle because of all the legal quandaries such a move would create.
    Our founding documents say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    This speaks to the moral center provided by their concepts of God that humans are equal and endowed by their Creator with rights which include, life. If a life is a creation of God, the unborn is not less.

    Now that we live in a more relative mind set, we have moved away from the idea that we are a creation. Maybe even for some less than a gnat.

    In all of this, I am not attempting to change anyone's mind. We all must live within the perspectives for which we decide.
    Abraham Lincoln used this language which had the slave in mind.
    Is the Christian "God" the basis for your morality on this topic? Do you believe that Jesus was the "son of God" and that he died and was raised again three days later?

  4. #504
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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    These two examples say that these preborn children to have the same rights as fully functional humans.
    The "same rights"? No. Not even all living US citizens have the same rights. We have rights that vary by age, by state, by gender.

    But yes, some states have put in laws to punish perpetrators for fetal deaths (some) while committing other felonies. That's not the same as granting a fetus the "same rights" as a born, functioning person. And only in some states. There are states *trying* to grant unborn children--even the fertilized ovum--legal personhood and certain rights (usually beginning with a right to life), but this has been an uphill battle because of all the legal quandaries such a move would create.
    Our founding documents say, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    This speaks to the moral center provided by their concepts of God that humans are equal and endowed by their Creator with rights which include, life. If a life is a creation of God, the unborn is not less.

    Now that we live in a more relative mind set, we have moved away from the idea that we are a creation. Maybe even for some less than a gnat.

    In all of this, I am not attempting to change anyone's mind. We all must live within the perspectives for which we decide.
    Abraham Lincoln used this language which had the slave in mind.
    Is the Christian "God" the basis for your morality on this topic? Do you believe that Jesus was the "son of God" and that he died and was raised again three days later?
    I think we know what it good and evil. Our conflicts come because we want to be fair toward a pregnant woman and so we've satisfied ourselves the best way to do this is to provide an abortion. We've essentially and arbitrarily said that until an unborn passes through the birth canal they are not human, or comparable worth as afforded the mother. There is no basis for this, no science, no "greater good". It is the root of Humanism. This type of thinking has far reaching effects on how we think of others and treat them.

    "Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child", from the original Hippocratic Oath. The opening, "I swear by Apollo Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture."

    Yes, I am a disciple of Jesus.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    Yes, I am a disciple of Jesus.
    Ok. That helps me understand.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    Yes, I am a disciple of Jesus.
    Ok. That helps me understand.
    Yes, Jesus said to treat others as you would want them to treat you. Since I wouldn’t want to have been aborted, it becomes only natural to place value on the unborn. Or, at least in a secular, relative world to make the argument for there well being.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I am thinking this morning how ordinary the unborn for some has become. Just another pregnancy. No miracle here to see. It is like passing a rose in summer and not having the faintest interest.

    The unborn has no intrinsic value. It is only of value when the mother says so. Otherwise, easily discarded in cellular vernacular. Of course, for some, during the later gestation period, the value rises because the cells come to resemble what it has always been.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Often, I will read someone ask, "how could God be good and allow all these bad things to occur". Who is responsible for abortion, beating a man to death in Memphis, treating a demented relative as if they no longer have worth, or treating others as you, yourself, would hope not to be treated? Should God take away your ability to do these things?

    The thing is, we all are guilty of doing things we know are not as we should have done them.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    It's not likely to pass the House, but these senators have the right idea: protect abortion up to viability:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/3851564...to-codify-roe/

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Another legal twist over abortifacient pills:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortio...orth-carolina/

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    And more: it's pretty clear that lawyers will now be receiving a good bit of business in the aftermath of Dobbs:

    https://ago.mo.gov/home/news/2023/02...abortion-pills

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    When humanity gets used to devaluing human life using abortion, it is a slippery slope for other atrocities.

    "“How would you respond to the argument that I have heard on occasion where, um, in the case where child abuse is fatal, obviously it’s not good for the child, but it’s actually a benefit to society because there aren’t needs for government services and whatnot over the whole course of that child’s life?”

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/la...ey/ar-AA17Pz28
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    When humanity gets used to devaluing human life using abortion,....
    The devaluation of *some* human life by other humans was in widespread practice long before legal abortion. History shows no cause effect between legal abortion and other forms of cruelty toward humanity because cruelty toward fellow humans has been practiced through all recorded history. Including by Christians who would cringe at the news of fellow Christians commiting abortion or infanticide. Callous cruelty toward other humans is, sadly, so ubiquitous through history that the cause is something other than a modern legal practice.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    I’ve got to put that response in the “what about this” category. Murder is an historic practice practiced by all cultures, but it’s not an acceptable practice.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I’ve got to put that response in the “what about this” category. Murder is an historic practice practiced by all cultures, but it’s not an acceptable practice.
    Chuck, you're the one that put in this article about child abuse and neglect and then tied it to abortion. Isn't that "what about this"? I simply replied exactly to the logic in your sentence. I did not introduce the new topic: you did. The episode in the chamber of the Alaska House had nothing to do with abortion.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    It is tied to abortion. It is tied to how we treat old people. If this upsets you, I do understand. So far, however, your responses haven’t shown you understand.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    It is tied to abortion. It is tied to how we treat old people. If this upsets you, I do understand. So far, however, your responses haven’t shown you understand.
    I am not upset at all, Chuck.

    What is it that you think that I don't "understand"? I have not disagreed with you in any way, except to say that your suggestion that legal abortion leads to things like that guy said in the Alaska House was errant logic (because things like what he said have been said for centuries before abortion was legal).

    When you suggested that *I* was changing the subject, I merely pointed out that it was you who brought up the guy in Alaska. I simply responded to the fact that *you* brought it up.

    If you want me to agree that accepting legal abortion leads to the commission of a greater number of other cruelties toward humanity, it is going to take a lot more than you simply stating it for me to agree. I actually think that today, in general, humanity is vastly better behaved toward each other than 200, 500, 1000, 2000 years ago. The historical records from those times show cruelty toward the poor and the dispossessed and toward those of other regions and religions on a scale far greater than what we see today. Take even 1939-1960 (the rise and wars of fascism in Germany, Italy, and the USSR). This was before legal abortion. Are you going to suggest that our basic treatment of fellow humanity has worsened since the years of invasion, murder, genocide, pogroms, intentional mass starvation, and purges?

    I think that human cruelty has its roots in something other than its legal position on abortion. Honestly.

    So I do think that I understand your point (as it was stated). I just don't agree. And there is a difference.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Didn’t intend nor do I remember saying you changed the topic

    What is significant is that an elected official suggested the deaths of abused children would save money which is an inconvenience and the same as why people disregard the obvious loss of human life in performance of an abortion. The point is human life is an inconvenience.

    While I appreciate your pro abortion stance, it’s odd you refuse to consider that when you reduce human value in one area, there are devaluations in other areas.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... it’s odd you refuse to consider that when you reduce human value in one area, there are devaluations in other areas.
    I am *considering* it, Chuck. I keep saying that I am not *convinced* because of all of the disregard for human value that exists without any correlation to abortion.

    I think that you are looking for me to say something like "maybe you are right". I don't think that your claim is even in the "maybe" category yet, but that does not mean that I don't "understand" it--which is what you said first. Nor am I "refusing to consider it." Again, I am considering it and disagreeing.

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    Default Re: Can We have a Civil Discussion about Abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Didn’t intend nor do I remember saying you changed the topic.
    Chuck, it is as plain as day. You called it a "what about this" reply. That's another term for "changing the topic" (deflection, misdirection, etc). You don't remember writing that? I don't really have to quote it, do I?

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