Swan 4660 - nib

[MarcoA64]

I'm looking at a Swan 4660 on ebay. The nib's imprint says, over multiple lines: Swan Eternal 4
From all the pictures I managed to see online I've not seen a 4660 with an Eternal nib. Lambrou says that Eternal was something Swan made to mimic Sheaffer's White dot.
Wonderng if this Is a 'fake' or was born lije this as a frankenpen?
Thank you
Marco

[FredRydr]

Who would be making fake Swans? Eternal nibs aren't rare, so perhaps one was inserted into the pen you are considering.

[MarcoA64]

Fred, not fake as a chinese Louis Vitton bag but as a 4660 with the nib replaced after sale. Are there any at all that left the assembly line with the Eternal nib?

[Pterodactylus]

I have also no definitive answer for you.
I own a 4660, but with a flexible (non eternal) nib.

To my knowledge eternal nibs were made from Nr. 1 up to Nr.8 and fitted as option in many Mabie Todd Swans.
The eternal nibs are very rigid therefor less attractive on the Market and sell for less (flex sells).

So sure it could be possible that a original flex nib was replaced (because it was damaged or used otherwise) with a “cheaper” available eternal one.
It’s imho also possible that this pen was manufactured with that nib already.

Maybe a more experienced Mabie Todd fellow can answer the question if a 4660 was available with eternal nibs also.

For me the more relevant questions would be.

Do I want a pen with a rigid eternal nib?
Do I like the 4660 design? (Itˋs a big pen with a big nib)
How is the condition of the pen?
Is the seller trustworthy?
Is the price right? (Compared to one with a flex nib)

[eachan]

Not a fake. No-one fakes Swans. Eternals appear in every nib size and were very popular. However, a 4660 should have a No 6 nib, not a No 4. The nib is not original to the pen and the smaller nib makes the pen considerably less valuable

[MarcoA64]

Hi Ptero, thank you for your insight and you raise very good questions at the end of your contribution. A) have no idea how rigid an Eternal nib would be so I don't know. B) I like the design and I like big pens when possible C) the pen looks fine from the photos. D) I believe so but I have never bought from him before. That said you can trust people up to a certaib point anyway. E) the seller has other 4460 with NON Eternal nibs on sale which are more expensive, £100 more, than this one. I don't know if it is expensive as I have not seen others around so can't compare.
Cheers
Marco

[MarcoA64]

Sorry all, I don't know what got into me. The pen is actually a 4460, Eachan's reply made me realise the mistake I made in referencing the model. Sorry

[MarcoA64]

And thank you Eachan for ypur contribution that made me realise the mistake :-)

[eachan]

It's a good pen, then. Eternals are thicker nibs than others, meeting the requirement for dealing with multiple carbons. As some people prefer nibs that flex Eternals are somewhat devalued.

[MarcoA64]

So if I use this pen to keep my journal and as I'll be writing between one to two pages a day will I get to enjoy it? I ask based on what you say about 'multiple carbons'. I'm not really into appreciating flex vs no flex nibs yet. I'm more interested in having nice looking, to the eye, pens that write properly, historically of note and have to be as they came out of the factory without anybody tampering them. Sac replacing aside :-)
Thank you Eachan
Marco

[Pterodactylus]

Difficult to say if you will enjoy the pen or not.
This alway prefer on personal preferences and the specific pen.

Imho buying a vintage pen without be able to try it in advance is always to a certain degree a gamble.
There is always the possibility that you actually don’t like the behavior or handling of a pen (not really the pens fault) or you get really a lemon which does not perform as expected.
On such old pens there is additionally the possibility that something may break down, which might be or be not repairable, but at least costs additional money.

In general I only recommend vintage pen buys (where you can’t test them in advance) to people which can afford getting a lemon occasionally.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m also addicted to vintage pens (most of my pens are vintage ones).
But I also own some which I do not really love, as said itˋs always a gamble.

E.g. my 4660 has an awesome super flexible nib, for showcase writing awesome with its incredible flexibility, but also itˋs a gusher and even after some tweaking it remained a gusher which works best with only a few iron gall inks. For sure no perfect daily writer.
But I don’t indicate that another 4660 may behave the same, these pens are old and have itˋs own individual character.

[eachan]

You don't say whether the nib is fine, medium or broad. It depends what you like. I like a fine firm nib for note-taking and drafting and I have several Swans with Eternal nibs which suit me very well.

The Eternal was not made to mimic Sheaffer's White Dot which was an issue about warranty. The Eternal was issued when carbon copies became popular because it needed a stronger nib to take the pressure applied to create multiple copies. I don't think that has much relevance to your enjoyment of the nib now.

[MarcoA64]

Eqchan, the seller says firm nib. I believe that this is also subjective though. Can a nib be firm for some and the opposite for someone else? Especially me in this case 🙂 I'm still undecided though.
I always try to get medium nibs.
The only new pens I have are Chinese that I bought after reading forum posts through the years as the money involved doesn't brake the bank and if they do not perform I'm not going to complain, they all have medium nibs. I prefer vintage pens if I have to buy one though.
Thank you to all that have chipped in
Marco

[eachan]

Eternals are almost always firm because the gold is quite a bit thicker. There can be considerable subjectivity about flexible nibs but firm is firm.

[MarcoA64]

Thank you Eachan

[Schaumburg_Swan]

Eternals are almost always firm because the gold is quite a bit thicker. There can be considerable subjectivity about flexible nibs but firm is firm.

+1

I have a stubbish #4 Eternal writing as smooth and firm as a new Pelikan 800 nib. Just with some additional line variation.

[MarcoA64]

I decided to pass on buying this pen. Instead I've bought the book on Swans so I can educate myself 🙂 and buy what I want after. I read about the book on Deb's blog and found it on eBay. I'll have something interesting to read at Christmas. Thank you again for the help you gave me on this Swan 4460. Marco

[eachan]

A good choice, Marco. All the information you need and an entertaining read too!