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Thread: Christian Nationaism

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Maybe that should be in the other thread.

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Maybe that should be in the other thread.
    Where ever you'd like. It's a direct follow up to your comments on evangelical politics. I've tried to phrase it to see if there is an understanding, not an agreement, with the motivation for the position.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    I don't think that any Evangelical voted for Donald Trump to express the priority of raising up other issues around poverty and care for women and poor children to the same moral status or activism that the anti-abortion movement received. I don't think that the decades-long effort to train and then appoint conservative justices to various benches had anything to do with elevating political or moral concerns around poverty or the welfare of mothers and poor children. From my point of view the Evangelical commitment to the GOP has been about Roe most of all, and then to a lesser degree about religious liberty, low taxes, slowing down social change, and a healthy dash of holding on to white advantage.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I am not a present or former evangelical Christian. But I have lived among them, worked among them, talked with them, and read about their political aspirations and sense of mission.

    As Bold alluded to above, my sense is that in this two-party system, evangelicals will choose whichever party stands against abortion (in nearly all, if not ALL cases) and will favor anti-abortion morality over all other moral concerns in a two-party election. There are other issues around religious freedom and family structure that they care about, but these are subordinated in their desire to overturn Roe v Wade. To ask them to care more about caring for the poor or for the welfare of abused mothers or abused and abandoned children is to ask them to care for things further down their moral concern list. In politics, for them, Roe is #1. And even that abortion numbers have been falling does not matter: Roe is #1 mission (politically).
    I do agree that abortion is the primary concern. That said, among those who identify as Christan also adopt and work to help young pregnant women, at least in my church gatherings experience. Not so much among Pentacostals and Charismatics, but more academically based/Bible groups.

    The problem as I see it, if you think Jesus wants you to sleep with the Devil to accomplish the Kingdom of God as you define it, where did you get that notion?
    Yes. I have had a few conservative Christian voting friends tell me that voting for Trump was a real strain on their religious conscience. Deeply worrisome for them. But finally, to help them get past the moral wrong they knew that they were doing (voting for an unrepentant openly sinning blasphemer) they would remind themselves of the statistics of legal abortion. Only then could they justify the "sin" of their support for Trump. I felt for them and was angered by them at the same time. But there it is.

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't think that any Evangelical voted for Donald Trump to express the priority of raising up other issues around poverty and care for women and poor children to the same moral status or activism that the anti-abortion movement received. I don't think that the decades-long effort to train and then appoint conservative justices to various benches had anything to do with elevating political or moral concerns around poverty or the welfare of mothers and poor children. From my point of view the Evangelical commitment to the GOP has been about Roe most of all, and then to a lesser degree about religious liberty, low taxes, slowing down social change, and a healthy dash of holding on to white advantage.
    All about saving babies, religious liberty, low taxes and slowing down social depravity.

    Please don’t generalize Christian as being for partiality.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Abortions were decreased when contraceptions were made available by insurance providers during the Obama administration. There has consistanly been a push back by Republicans on this benefit. They want fewer unwanted pregnancies, but won't provide a method.

    Religious liberty applies to more than White Evangelicals, there are and continue to be Muslim and Jewish religoius folk who suffer discrimination. Black Evangelicals have not faired much better.

    That tax reform for the middle class did not benefit and several deductions were taken away. It is more of a con man's claim that you are better off when you are not.

    If slowing depravity is a goal, White Evangelicals are providing a very very poor example of what it needs to look like. By supoorting a known con man and the religious leaders being vocally supportive, even making excuses for his behavior, many just see the hyocracy and say, clean up your own house first before being critical about ours.

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    The problem as I see it, if you think Jesus wants you to sleep with the Devil to accomplish the Kingdom of God as you define it, where did you get that notion?
    And, other than your imagination, where did you get the idea that anyone thinks Jesus wants someone to sleep with the Devil? Your problem is that you keep positing that one candidate is the embodiment of evil, and the other a bright shining model of purity.

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Yes. I have had a few conservative Christian voting friends tell me that voting for Trump was a real strain on their religious conscience. Deeply worrisome for them. But finally, to help them get past the moral wrong they knew that they were doing (voting for an unrepentant openly sinning blasphemer) they would remind themselves of the statistics of legal abortion. Only then could they justify the "sin" of their support for Trump. I felt for them and was angered by them at the same time. But there it is.
    What level of moral purity do you suppose would allow your conservative Christian friends to vote for any candidate? If you listed the moral flaws of Joe Biden could one reach a point that they would be "sinning," and thus disqualified from voting for either candidate?

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Biden won not because of moral purity, but because people preferred him over another four years of obvious daily displays of lying and corruption.

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Biden won not because of moral purity, but because people preferred him over another four years of obvious daily displays of lying and corruption.
    Well they've got to be disappointed as they've gotten both.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to kazoolaw For This Useful Post:

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  12. #31
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Yes. I have had a few conservative Christian voting friends tell me that voting for Trump was a real strain on their religious conscience. Deeply worrisome for them. But finally, to help them get past the moral wrong they knew that they were doing (voting for an unrepentant openly sinning blasphemer) they would remind themselves of the statistics of legal abortion. Only then could they justify the "sin" of their support for Trump. I felt for them and was angered by them at the same time. But there it is.
    What level of moral purity do you suppose would allow your conservative Christian friends to vote for any candidate? If you listed the moral flaws of Joe Biden could one reach a point that they would be "sinning," and thus disqualified from voting for either candidate?
    Yes, certainly. One has to make a moral priority list to make these choices (or have no moral list at all and choose for other reasons). Legal abortion, as I have said, is a deal breaker for some. For others, like myself, it is not, and other values rise to the top. The fact of having to choose only between two old white men of privilege stank, and is part of the moral problem of choice for me. It often becomes a "lesser evil" exercise when the options suck.

  13. #32
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Biden won not because of moral purity, but because people preferred him over another four years of obvious daily displays of lying and corruption.
    Well they've got to be disappointed as they've gotten both.
    I don’t see it that way myself. I see a big difference just on a day to day basis. I have no regrets, but like Ted reminded you, only had two old white men from which to choose. I took the lesser of two evils.

    I did a comprehensive study of Trump circa 2015.

  14. #33
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Let’s discuss Jerry Falwell Jr. He imposed rules on the student while participating i some pretty strange practices

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Chuck,
    You said, "I took the lesser of two evils."
    You chose to align yourself with evil, lesser though you believed it to be.

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Chuck,
    You said, "I took the lesser of two evils."
    You chose to align yourself with evil, lesser though you believed it to be.
    You asked Chuck this, but I can answer for me: I knowingly vote for sinners every time I cast a vote. I often know what some of their sins are, but often I know also that I don't know them all. I decide which sins and which degree of sinning is more tolerable (like how I am with friends and family and myself) and then make decisions from there. Not all sins are equal (thus the list that I described above) nor is each sin committed to the same degree. Sinners aren't all equal in this regard. In morality, as in law, there are degrees of wrong-doing.
    Last edited by TSherbs; January 12th, 2022 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Spelling

  17. #36
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    True there are worse sins than others however they all get the eternal death penalty

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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    I disagree

  19. #38
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Romans 6
    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

    John 19

    11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

  20. #39
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Chuck,
    You said, "I took the lesser of two evils."
    You chose to align yourself with evil, lesser though you believed it to be.
    You asked Chuck this, but I can answer for me: I knowingly vote for sinners every time I cast a vote. I often know what some of their sins are, but often I know also that I don't know them all. I decide which sins and which degree of sinning is more tolerable (like how I am with friends and family and myself) and then make decisions from there. Not all sins are equal (thus the list that I described above) nor is each sin committed to the same degree. Sinners aren't all equal in this regard. In morality, as in law, there are degrees of wrong-doing.
    TS-
    No question mark in Post 34.
    You haven't made the same claim as Chuck.
    But your weighing of morality should help you understand, not necessarily agreewith, why people would vote against a candidate who is in favor of abortion.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Christian Nationaism

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Chuck,
    You said, "I took the lesser of two evils."
    You chose to align yourself with evil, lesser though you believed it to be.
    You asked Chuck this, but I can answer for me: I knowingly vote for sinners every time I cast a vote. I often know what some of their sins are, but often I know also that I don't know them all. I decide which sins and which degree of sinning is more tolerable (like how I am with friends and family and myself) and then make decisions from there. Not all sins are equal (thus the list that I described above) nor is each sin committed to the same degree. Sinners aren't all equal in this regard. In morality, as in law, there are degrees of wrong-doing.
    TS-
    No question mark in Post 34.
    You haven't made the same claim as Chuck.
    But your weighing of morality should help you understand, not necessarily agreewith, why people would vote against a candidate who is in favor of abortion.
    ?? I've never said that I don't understand. I entered the thread stating that I feel that I do understand.

    I would add that appealing to these same voters is why (major reason, not *only one*) Trump picked Pence for VP. I understand the move (I don't think that it is complicated).

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