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Thread: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    tldr. Sin is real. Injustice will not bring justice


    Welch I am aware of its origins with law professionals.

    American slavery is enormous egregious sin. But it is not the original sin. All sins rightfully viewed are first and foremost against God (see David and Bathsheba). We can only be free from the bondage of sin through Him not through the work of “anti racism”.

    This country needs justice but we must never bend or pervert justice in order to get there. If we do we will be worse off.

    Rm 2:11
    For there is no partiality with God.

    Deut 10:17
    For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

    Deut 16
    18 Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the Lord your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. 19 Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent. 20 Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you.

    Deut 24

    14 “You shall not oppress a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your brothers or one of the sojourners who are in your land within your towns. 15 You shall give him his wages on the same day, before the sun sets (for he is poor and counts on it), lest he cry against you to the Lord, and you be guilty of sin.

    16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    17 “You shall not pervert the justice due to the sojourner or to the fatherless, or take a widow's garment in pledge, 18 but you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you from there; therefore I command you to do this.

    Rm 14

    10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

    “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
    and every tongue shall confess[b] to God.”
    12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post

    I am all for routing out partiality and learning from the horrid mistakes of US past. CRT will not bring about these desired ends.
    Not clear if you have read anything about "CRT". Start with the real thing: Delgado and Stefancic's Introduction. https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race...ps%2C91&sr=8-2

    If studies of racism, slavery, and American history make you nervous, the start with Winthrop Jordan's "White Over Black". https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Bl...ps%2C98&sr=8-2
    I have read a few books on the subject (admittedly nothing directly from the woke canon).

    How can a system using partiality fix the sin of partiality (which has a real and horrid past)?
    There is no "woke canon". Delgado and Stefancic are the main living law professors who discuss Critical Race Theory. It is work in law schools that tries to figure out ways to extend the Civil Rights Movement. What does "partiality" have to do with their arguments? Do you have any idea what "Critical Race Theory" is about? It sounds like you are ignorantly spouting the Party Line that Fox News poured into you last year. They made it up. Go read something.

    Here. At the least, stop repeating idiocy. Learn something about slavery and racism, about the slave system, about the coming of the Civil War, about Reconstruction.

    - the fundamental work is Winthrop Jordan, "White Over Black". Jordan asked whether English racism caused slavery or whether slavery cause English Americans to develop racist notions about enslaved people. https://www.amazon.com/White-Over-Bl...ps%2C83&sr=8-1

    - a shorter work: Edmund Morgan, "American Slavery, American Freedom". Morgan was one of the best Colonial historians, from his work on Puritan families to the founding of Rhode Island to the Stamp Act. This book, one of his last, examines how the Virginia colony came to depend on slave labor.
    https://www.amazon.com/American-Slav...ps%2C97&sr=8-1

    - David Brion Davis, "The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution". Part of a three-volume study. https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Slave...s%2C134&sr=8-1

    - Christopher L. Brown, "Moral Capital". A study of the abolitionist movement in Great Britain, which examines the interactions between British and Americans in coming to anti-slavery views and abolitionism in the 1770s and 1780s. How did moral outrage become a movement that outlawed the Trans-Atlantic slave trade about 1790, and then abolished slavery in the British Empire in the 1830s?
    https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Capital...5&sr=8-1-fkmr0

    - Manisha Sinha, "The Slaves Cause: A History of Abolition". https://www.amazon.com/Slaves-Cause-...ps%2C97&sr=8-1

    - Kenneth M. Stampp: "The Peculiar Institution". https://www.amazon.com/Peculiar-Inst...ps%2C77&sr=8-2

    - Eugene Genovese, "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The Work the Slaves Made". https://www.amazon.com/Roll-Jordan-W...s%2C110&sr=8-1

    - Eric Foner, "Reconstruction". The standard history of Reconstruction. https://www.amazon.com/Reconstructio...ps%2C77&sr=8-1

    - See, also, a digital resource called "Slave Voyages". In the last twenty years, researchers have logged more and more of slave-ship voyages by ship name, starting point, stops, number of slaves, landing in North and South America, return voyages, and by date. Something that is handy with a computer and a database.
    https://www.slavevoyages.org/

    These are just a few of the standard works. They demonstrate that slavery has been intermeshed with America -- culture, society, economy -- from the beginning. Later for a sampling of works on everything from 1877 through 1970.
    Thanks for the robust reply and sources. I don’t watch or read the news (but I do listen to NPR and conservative radio on a weekly rotation).

    I don’t disagree about America’s past evils and its consequences . I just disagree about how to fix them.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    An old lady once said, "there is more than one way to skin a cat".

    "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can."

    John Wesley

    If the law school studies help, and I think they are doing it. If there is another way, do it. The absolute wrong opinion to hold on to is that your way is the only way. It has never worked, and it never will. Even Jesus didn't give a to do list, he just said treat others as you'd want to be treated. I guess he figured if people followed that advice, the right things would get accomplished. And the law of reciprocity is not unique to one religion.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; January 20th, 2022 at 11:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.
    Good question, EOC. Do you generally find you agree with them?

    I stumbled upon them maybe 3-5 years ago as a result of a conversation with a Buddhist on a similar, unmoderated forum. When someone says they believe in Karma, I always ask if they are familiar with these 12 laws.

    I don't see them any different from the 10 commandments. Some see them as something you must obey or perish. Why not consider them as laws that will produce the most out of life? Of course we might not always exemplify, but that's okay if we work our way back on some level.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    American slavery is enormous egregious sin. But it is not the original sin. All sins rightfully viewed are first and foremost against God (see David and Bathsheba). We can only be free from the bondage of sin through Him not through the work of “anti racism”.
    CRT seeks justice, not eradication from "sin."

    Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.

    This is like asking water to be wine. Only Jesus did that, and only "believers" believe it.

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    welch (January 20th, 2022)

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    American slavery is enormous egregious sin. But it is not the original sin. All sins rightfully viewed are first and foremost against God (see David and Bathsheba). We can only be free from the bondage of sin through Him not through the work of “anti racism”.
    CRT seeks justice, not eradication from "sin."

    Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.

    This is like asking water to be wine. Only Jesus did that, and only "believers" believe it.
    Well put. Even in Christianity sin is never eradicated.

    If there is a sin on this side of Heaven, it is when good people doing nothing. It is when people are blind and refuse to see. For me, when Jesus said in Luke 4 that he came for recovery of sight for the blind, it means there is opportunities in life to see.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.
    Good question, EOC. Do you generally find you agree with them?

    I stumbled upon them maybe 3-5 years ago as a result of a conversation with a Buddhist on a similar, unmoderated forum. When someone says they believe in Karma, I always ask if they are familiar with these 12 laws.

    I don't see them any different from the 10 commandments. Some see them as something you must obey or perish. Why not consider them as laws that will produce the most out of life? Of course we might not always exemplify, but that's okay if we work our way back on some level.

    Only in parts. These laws appear to be cobbled together recently. They don't, in the main, represent the Buddhist view of karma, which has nothing to do with reciprocity, judgement, or rewards and punishments. Karma for Buddhists represents the actions that keep us in the suffering that is saṃsāra, and the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path is a means of escaping saṃsāra thus eliminating suffering. So, unlike the popular view of karma where what goes around comes around, which is seen mostly as a system of reward and punishment, there is no set linear relationship between actions and outcomes in Buddhism.

    I cannot speak for the exact form of understanding of karma in other traditions, other than to say that here in the West we often end up with a mishmash of ideas where an interested person has synthesised various concepts from different traditions.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    “We already have cooperated,” Mr. Raffensperger said in an interview with Fox News on Thursday. “Any information that they’ve requested, we sent it to them. And if we’re compelled to come before a grand jury, obviously, we will follow the law and come before a grand jury and testify.”

    The DA in Atlanta requests a grand jury to investigate the former president's possible election interference. Above is the response from Mr. Raffensperger.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    I have often wondered where these '12 laws' come from as they are never directly referenced and don't appear to exist in this form in any of the usual scriptures.
    Good question, EOC. Do you generally find you agree with them?

    I stumbled upon them maybe 3-5 years ago as a result of a conversation with a Buddhist on a similar, unmoderated forum. When someone says they believe in Karma, I always ask if they are familiar with these 12 laws.

    I don't see them any different from the 10 commandments. Some see them as something you must obey or perish. Why not consider them as laws that will produce the most out of life? Of course we might not always exemplify, but that's okay if we work our way back on some level.

    Only in parts. These laws appear to be cobbled together recently. They don't, in the main, represent the Buddhist view of karma, which has nothing to do with reciprocity, judgement, or rewards and punishments. Karma for Buddhists represents the actions that keep us in the suffering that is saṃsāra, and the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path is a means of escaping saṃsāra thus eliminating suffering. So, unlike the popular view of karma where what goes around comes around, which is seen mostly as a system of reward and punishment, there is no set linear relationship between actions and outcomes in Buddhism.

    I cannot speak for the exact form of understanding of karma in other traditions, other than to say that here in the West we often end up with a mishmash of ideas where an interested person has synthesised various concepts from different traditions.
    Whether or not, it would be hard to argue against making these 12 laws a part of one's life.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.
    Are statements that mathematics, punctuality, and grammar are constructs of white supremacy CRT statements, or something else?

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    As with most things, there is a theory and then various interpretations. Nothing new here. Try to consider CRT as Ted and Welch have explained.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    i ask because the posts above because they focus on the teaching of history. I want to know whether I am understanding correctly, particularly as TS has said CRT has been misrepresented.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Don't switch the terms on it. This is one of the maneuvers of white supremacy: to ask CRT to do what it itself is not attempting to do or designed to do. CRT is not a religious investigation: it is fully secular, and mostly academic.
    Are statements that mathematics, punctuality, and grammar are constructs of white supremacy CRT statements, or something else?
    I think they are "something else". No mention of those in Delgado and Stefancic's "Intro". Not in their references, either. Not in their suggested classroom exercises, either.

    Take a read, Kaz. The references and "Further Readings" show where they are going. By the way, much of it is in law review articles.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    i ask because the posts above because they focus on the teaching of history. I want to know whether I am understanding correctly, particularly as TS has said CRT has been misrepresented.
    Self education is your friend.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Thanks for reply. On my first quick search, it looked to me that CRT is whatever the particular author/speaker/reader says it is. I'll take a look at the references.

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Wrong, but whatever....LOL!!

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    >>blink<<

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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.

    Now do HRC.
    same as
    dAR
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    Default Re: Does Trumo Really Believe He Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by terim View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Either answer should DQ him from leadership of the nation for another term.

    Now do HRC.
    same as
    dAR
    Daughters of the American Revolution. They gave me a scholarship in high school and I was mortified but I wasn't cool enough to turn it down.
    LOL!! Good for you.

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