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Thread: Is he wrong?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    "City Councilman Ydanis Rodriguez, an immigrant from the Dominican Republic, is sponsoring the legislation, which would give the right to vote in municipal elections to New York residents who are legal permanent residents or have a work authorization.
    Nearly one million New York City residents cannot vote in local elections because they are not citizens, according to Rodriguez's office, despite paying taxes and being invested in and contributing to the city."

  2. #22
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    What does that have to do with democrats lying about republicans "undermining democracy"?

    Why can't you follow a topic, Chuck?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    "... because they are not citizens, according to Rodriguez's office, despite paying taxes and being invested in and contributing to the city."
    Become citizens. My people did.

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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Hard to follow BS and nonsense @dneal. I just kind of go along to provide you with something for which to reply.

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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    @ EoC - SNIP.
    Thanks for this. Although I am not super interested in US politics, as it is all over the news these days I really should read around a bit more, and this is a reasonable start.

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    dneal (January 16th, 2022)

  8. #26
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Hard to follow BS and nonsense @dneal. I just kind of go along to provide you with something for which to reply.
    Chuck, check the bottom of your shoes. You're dragging it around, not following it around.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  9. #27
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    @ EoC - SNIP.
    Thanks for this. Although I am not super interested in US politics, as it is all over the news these days I really should read around a bit more, and this is a reasonable start.
    90% of it are information operation campaigns being waged by two opposing factions. Life's a lot easier if you just look at it from that standpoint. I only track it to get an update on what the bullshit narratives are from each side. The "politics as usual" point you rightly make earlier in the thread...

    The reason I posted the Rep Jordan rant is because he so clearly lays out the hypocrisy the right sees the left doing, and it occurred to me that he's not wrong. From your perspective, it's a good summation of what's going on underneath the narratives - with the added historical backdrop.

    You can see from the responses how wrapped up in the hyperbole people are, and how it impacts their critical thinking. I'm not a Republican or Democrat. If one were to assign me a political party, it would probably be "libertarian" - although they specifically are a mish-mash of obstinate idealists, with varying ideals.

    But to the partisans, I'm the opposite of whatever they are. Since the board here leans left, I'm a "Trumpist" or whatever pejorative they come up with. In other places, I'm a "leftie". Marijuana laws, Israeli policy, international "policing", etc... I take a much more liberal view.

    Everyone (particularly the left) is just consumed with Trump... I see why, although the degree with which baffles me.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Is he wrong?



    There are many reasons to be concerned about Trump.

    I am independent myself, but I choose to participate.
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; January 16th, 2022 at 11:07 AM.

  11. #29
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Your trolling game goes from sad to pathetic the more you try, Chuck.

    Probably best to stick to your many Trump threads and leave this one to the grown ups, if you can’t act like one.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Just to add clarification, although this could probably be deduced from my other posts, I suspect that (although I've never looked too closely at it) my political position leans toward the post liberal. That's not to say I don't hold some conservative views, but I have to accept that my political stance probably leads me to seeing conservative transgressions (politically speaking) as being somehow worse than liberal transgressions, though I do see both as wrong. It's a bias of course, and I hope that makes sense to other readers. At least that should help to place in context any statements I make on political debates.

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  14. #31
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Just to add clarification, although this could probably be deduced from my other posts, I suspect that (although I've never looked too closely at it) my political position leans toward the post liberal. That's not to say I don't hold some conservative views, but I have to accept that my political stance probably leads me to seeing conservative transgressions (politically speaking) as being somehow worse than liberal transgressions, though I do see both as wrong. It's a bias of course, and I hope that makes sense to other readers. At least that should help to place in context any statements I make on political debates.
    You always seemed like a typical "labor" left person to me. We all have biases. It's one thing to recognize them and be able to articulate a reason for them. Then they become principles. It's another to just assert positions based on how we feel, with no rational foundation; and claim to be correct. Then each side just shouts platitudes at each other, as often seen here.

    If we can articulate our position, even though we ultimately end up disagreeing, we can have political (or religious or philosophical) conversations. Unfortunately, most do not seem to be able to do that.

    Trump is a racist, Obama is a communist, so there!!! or variations of, is a waste of time.

    Here, I'll critique Jordan's rant.

    The democrats have objected to counting the presidential electors every single time this century that a republican has been elected President.

    True, but this is just pointing out hypocrisy.

    They spent four years trying to overturn the 2016 election. Democrats spied on a Presidential campaign.
    They did impeachment in secret based on a so-called whistleblower whose identity only congressman Schiff got to know.

    True, and it's cause for concern. It's not just Democrats though. Anti-Trump Republicans went along with it. I don't care how obnoxious the orange one is, this is fundamentally wrong.

    This Congress, they have closed the capitol, enacted proxy voting, kicked republicans off committee and for the first time in American history, denied republicans seats on a select committee that was chosen by the minority leader.

    True. The Republicans kicked off committee were the radicals though. I'm not sure if that's right or wrong. What is wrong is the Democrat Speaker of the House determining who the opposition party can appoint to the select committee "investigating" Jan 6.

    They are trying to make D.C. a state, end the electoral college, end the filibuster, pack the court, destroy executive privilege, take federal control of elections and are currently allowing in jurisdictions illegal immigrants to vote.

    All true. I see the benefit of executive privilege in ensuring advisers are free to advise without fear of repercussion, but I also see the problem of shenanigans being hidden (regardless of party). The Obama administration certainly wouldn't want their private conversations becoming public record, for example. It's a problem, with hypocrites on both sides.

    And finally, the January 6 committee has altered evidence and lied to the American people about it.

    True, and done by the same person responsible for the "Russia Collusion" lies. Despicable.

    But somehow they tell us it's President Trump and republicans who are undermining democracy?

    Just pointing out hypocrisy, but the point is valid.

    Give me a break. Undermining democracy because we actually think you should show a photo id when you go to vote? In one year's time, while democrats are doing all that; in one year's time they've given us:

    Record crime, record inflation, record illegal immigration. And as bad as all that is, it's not the worst. The worst is how they've used the virus to attack our freedoms. How they've used the virus to attack our first amendment rights, and here's the irony: they use the virus to attack our liberties even though everything they have told us about the virus has been wrong.

    Now we are getting to the partisan hyperbole. Although hyperbolic rhetoric, it's grounded in truth. We do have record crime, record inflation, record illegal immigration. The last in particular is solely the fault of the current admin.

    The "attack on 1st amendment rights" I suppose is a reference to Big Tech. He's right that there is censorship going on, and that Big Tech tends to lean left; but its a novel issue that needs clarity which won't happen in this political environment.


    They told us it didn't come from a lab.
    They told us it wasn't gain of function research.
    They told us it was only 15 days to slow the spread.
    They told us masks work.
    They told us we have a federal plan - Joe Biden said that himself.
    They told us there would never be a vaccine mandate.
    They told us to vaccinate - people who get vaccinated can't give get the virus, the vaccinated can't transmit the virus and they told us there was no such thing as natural immunity.

    More hyperbole, and pointing out of hypocrisy, but true. Some of it is criminal, in my opinion. Some of it (like discovering that vaccines weren't as effective as initially asserted) is political grandstanding - but politics led to the initial claim. The pandemic, like everything else in our hyper-political environment, is just another political football.

    Think about this:

    At the same time, democrats require you to put on a mask, show your papers - and an ID - to get a Big Mac at McDonald’s, they want to allow the federal government to stop states from requiring a photo ID to vote

    Hyperbole and pointing out of hypocrisy, but true. If showing an ID is voter suppression, racist, or whatever; most civilized countries on the planet are guilty. The data is clear that ID is easy to get, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, etc... The numbers are over 90%. If you can't get an ID, you aren't trying..
    So back to the original question: "Is he wrong?"

    Not really.

    Now ask why Chuck et al couldn't calmly articulate any of that, with whatever emphasis on hyperbole or pointing out of hypocrisy they felt needed. We got chimpscreaming, rhetoric and deflection instead. You would see more, but as Chuck claims many users have me on "ignore". I'm grateful for that.
    Last edited by dneal; January 16th, 2022 at 01:06 PM.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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  16. #32
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by fountainpenkid View Post
    Oh gosh, it's almost all bullshit. Inaccurate partisan bullshit. (Democrats didn't spy on the Trump campaign, the U.S government did, etc.; don't get me started on all his pandemic bullshit). Why are we wasting time discussing what a morally-bankrupt political hack is saying? Seriously, there's something called the National Review.
    Some things he said are perfectly true though, at least for a good portion of elected Democrats: "They are trying to make D.C. a state, {check!} end the electoral college {check!}, end the filibuster {check!}, pack the court {check!}, destroy executive privilege {not so much}, take federal control of elections {check} and are currently allowing in jurisdictions illegal immigrants to vote {seriously lol?}."
    He doesn't begin to realize the irony in him asking this question: "But somehow they tell us it's President Trump and republicans who are undermining democracy?" In fact, making D.C a state, ending the electoral college, and taking more federal control of national elections are the very sort of reforms that WOULD get us closer to representative democracy. There's really no way to dispute that. The thing is, the country wasn't designed as a truly representative democracy (both with the E.C and through racist thinking embedded in it), and some people--with valid arguments, at times--want to keep it that way.
    Well put, Kid. I'm not sure how young you are, but you have a good head on your shoulders, and a good nose for bullshit.

  17. #33
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Heh! I have no doubt that my political persuasions will shift again and again. During my adult life in the UK I have voted for opposing parties in separate elections. Never really examined my overall leaning because if questioned there are so many grey or ambiguous areas that I cannot decide what is right/correct. I'm quite uninformed about politics in any formal way I'm afraid.

    Edit: I just took the Political Compass test (not sure if it is in any way accurate), answered everything honestly and quickly. The result is: Economic Left/Right: -6.0, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69



    Not exactly sure what this means of course.
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; January 16th, 2022 at 01:25 PM.

  18. #34
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    stoppit you guys! think of the children!

  19. #35
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Heh! I have no doubt that my political persuasions will shift again and again. During my adult life in the UK I have voted for opposing parties in separate elections. Never really examined my overall leaning because if questioned there are so many grey or ambiguous areas that I cannot decide what is right/correct. I'm quite uninformed about politics in any formal way I'm afraid.

    Edit: I just took the Political Compass test (not sure if it is in any way accurate), answered everything honestly and quickly. The result is: Economic Left/Right: -6.0, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69



    Not exactly sure what this means of course.

    They're general in nature and accuracy, and I can list all sorts of problems with the questions (not to mention that many I'm indifferent to require me to "agree" or "disagree"); but just for fun here's my result.

    Screen Shot 2022-01-16 at 3.26.09 PM.png
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  20. #36
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    I'm not surprised at the number of Kool Aid drinkers on this forum, or in society in general. Most people are defenseless in the face of the sophisticated psyops they are subjected to by the Ministry of Propaganda... not wait, silly me... by the mainstream "news" media. We've all been conditioned to accept the stuff they show us on tv "newscasts" as at least more or less true. The possibility that it might be anything else isn't even on most people's radar.
    Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. — Horace
    (What are you laughing at? Just change the name and the joke’s on you.)

  21. #37
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    FWIW, here is my result:



    Funny, most of the looney lefties on this forum would expect to see me far right and highly authoritarian.
    Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. — Horace
    (What are you laughing at? Just change the name and the joke’s on you.)

  22. #38
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    I have no expectations or a clue what you meant to say. Cheers dude!!

  23. #39
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamus View Post
    Funny, most of the looney lefties on this forum would expect to see me far right and highly authoritarian.
    To which Chuck immediately responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I have no expectations or a clue what you meant to say. Cheers dude!!
    So Chuck (probably inadvertently in his rush to snideness) admits or proclaims himself to be a "looney lefty"?

    The jokes write themselves.

    Bless your heart, Chuck.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Is he wrong?

    Happy you’re supporting the science now.

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