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Thread: Wanting to forgo the sac

  1. #21
    Senior Member Detman101's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Quote Originally Posted by Resto-Mod-ifier View Post
    And done. 20 minutes of measurements and about 30 minutes of “work”

    Dunno how to post pics here, so here’s a link
    https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...tm_name=iossmf
    Great work getting rid of the crappy condom!
    Definitely an upgrade, and a well done one!
    "I can only improve my self, not the world."

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Ron Z's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Note that I did not say that it was impossible. Just impractical. It may work, but I've never done it on one of my own pens (though I could) and would never do it for a customer.

    Here are some of the problems.

    1] There's a reason why every cartridge/converter pen uses the same basic design elements from the earliest C/C pens in the 60s to today. All of the pens that are designed to use cartridges or converters have a piercing tube to both pierce the cartridge to fit into the converter, and to house the insert on the feed. The insert is part of the feed, designed to carry the ink from the inside of the cartridge/converter down to the nib. Those slits carry the ink, the fins on the collector just help to regulate flow. The insert also allows air to flow back into the C/C, preventing (for lack of a better word) vapor lock. That can prevent ink from flowing out of the converter or cartridge down to the feed. This is something that every pen mechanic has had to deal with, and the repair often involves modifying the feed! Were you able to write all of the ink out of the converter before it stalled?

    2] Not all pens have enough room down in the section to fit a cartridge. Many times the feed comes to the very end of the section. Many Sheaffers have the insert/extension on the end of the feed to facilitate an adequate flow of ink.

    3] Did you remove the pressure bar? What did you do with the lever if the pressure bar is out?

    4] This is a slip fit section. I would be surprised if the barrel does not crack at some point from regularly removing the section from the barrel, or the section becoming so lose that it shifts or falls out of the barrel. Slip fit sections were not designed to be removed on a regular basis. I consider opening and removing a snug or tight section to be the most dangerous part of a restoration or repair because the barrel can crack.

    5] Does this take a converter or just the cartridge? If just the cartridge, congratulations. You've made a modified eyedropper, which is the very thing that the "self fillers" were trying to avoid when they were invented, and why they were such a big hit.

    Thinking outside of the box is what I'm known for in repair. I just like the repair to be reliable, and to preserve the design and function of a pen. But its your pen....
    Last edited by Ron Z; February 14th, 2022 at 02:43 PM.

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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    That was very helpful @Ron Z.

    If the nib/feed is alright is it possible to make a new modern section with a convertor, instead of salvaging the unsalvageable?

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  7. #24
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    I've read this post a few times. I've tried to give it a fair reading, but it still seems there's just a little bit of snark and dismissiveness that permeates. I already know I'm going to catch hell, but I'm used to that.

    There's a clique-ish-ness in the pen community, much more prevalent at FPN, which also has a history of memory-holing posts or even outright banning people who fall out of favor with the powers that be for speaking "heresy" (like this thread). The "you can't do that" or "it's just not done" snobbery (for lack of a better term) rubs me wrong.

    So I've got my asbestos bloomers on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    Note that I did not say that it was impossible. Just impractical. It may work, but I've never done it on one of my own pens (though I could) and would never do it for a customer.
    Here's what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z
    There is no practical way to convert a sac pen to a cartridge/converter pen, especially a vintage pen.
    On the scale of "impossible" to "impractical", that sure reads as if it leans much harder to the "impossible" side of the spectrum.

    There are clearly a couple of ways to do that. Thread the section to fit a nib unit, or (as the OP did) thread it to fit a screw in converter. These are both very practical ways, and not terribly difficult for a person with a drill press, thread pitch gauge, and/or tap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    Here are some of the problems.

    1] There's a reason why every cartridge/converter pen uses the same basic design elements from the earliest C/C pens in the 60s to today. All of the pens that are designed to use cartridges or converters have a piercing tube to both pierce the cartridge to fit into the converter, and to house the insert on the feed. The insert is part of the feed, designed to carry the ink from the inside of the cartridge/converter down to the nib. Those slits carry the ink, the fins on the collector just help to regulate flow. The insert also allows air to flow back into the C/C, preventing (for lack of a better word) vapor lock. That can prevent ink from flowing out of the converter or cartridge down to the feed. This is something that every pen mechanic has had to deal with, and the repair often involves modifying the feed! Were you able to write all of the ink out of the converter before it stalled?
    Not sure how this is a problem. It seems like it's a description of how pretty much every fountain pen works, and there are a few discrepancies. The fins on the collector don't regulate flow, for example. Fins are simply a way to increase surface area, which is why they are present on an air cooled motorcycle engine. In the case of a fountain pen, they are an increase in surface area for excess ink to collect on when internal pressure exceeds atmospheric pressure and ink in the reservoir is caught in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    2] Not all pens have enough room down in the section to fit a cartridge. Many times the feed comes to the very end of the section. Many Sheaffers have the insert/extension on the end of the feed to facilitate an adequate flow of ink.
    Fair enough, and a potential problem; but not one in this case nor every case. It's simply screening criteria for selecting a candidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    3] Did you remove the pressure bar? What did you do with the lever if the pressure bar is out?
    Is this really a problem? A drop of glue seems an easy fix to hold the lever in a fixed position, since it's no longer needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    4] This is a slip fit section. I would be surprised if the barrel does not crack at some point from regularly removing the section from the barrel, or the section becoming so lose that it shifts or falls out of the barrel. Slip fit sections were not designed to be removed on a regular basis. I consider opening and removing a snug or tight section to be the most dangerous part of a restoration or repair because the barrel can crack.
    Again, is this really a problem? You can reduce the diameter of the section and use something like a oil-dominant rosin mix to secure it. Holds well and is easily removable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    5] Does this take a converter or just the cartridge? If just the cartridge, congratulations. You've made a modified eyedropper, which is the very thing that the "self fillers" were trying to avoid when they were invented, and why they were such a big hit.
    Honestly, this is the really snarky/dismissive part. It's also clear that he threaded the barrel-side of the section to take a screw in converter. Pretty good idea actually, although it presents its own problems that are relatively easily solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Z View Post
    Thinking outside of the box is what I'm known for in repair. I just like the repair to be reliable, and to preserve the design and function of a pen. But its your pen....
    And this is what gets under my skin with these types of threads. Person has a doable idea, but many (if not most) do not offer helpful ideas and instead go straight to why it won't work. You didn't "think outside the box" for this guy, nor offer your considerable expertise on ways he could do it. You just said "There's no practical way to convert...". At least Chrissy is thinking with her lathe comment (which is a more complicated way to reach the goal - through fabrication), and she rightly notes it is cost prohibitive.

    The guy experimented with a pen that would be relegated to a parts box (if not a trash can). He made it usable again. He is enjoying the hobby and sharing that. We should be congratulating rather than criticizing.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    As is common the usual offender cries foul and completely doesn't get it. I figure @ronz has forgotten more than most will ever know.

  10. #26
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Save it for the politics forum, Chuck.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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  12. #27
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    I'll also apologize to Ron for focusing on his post, and being a little harsh. I'll admit to being a little sensitive to this sort of topic, and can reference personal incidences where I was told "nope" and then went on to show "yep" - although I won't right now.

    I just get tired of the nay-sayers (and that's not a reference to Jon or the reddit thread). It's the crabs in the bucket thing, where every crab keeps pulling the others in. It's the "I can't do it so you can't do it" idea. It's the in-group/out-group, high-school clique-ish thing.

    I always thought the point of this forum was to get away from that. No "Grey Poupon" snobbery here. You want to enjoy your multi-colored collection of cheap Chinese pens? Cool. Not my thing, but cool nonetheless. Same goes for the other end of the price/rarity spectrum. Not my thing either, but I can appreciate it. Into calligraphy? Cool too, but not all of us have to be able to write in perfect Spencerian (or Klingon, or whatever that stuff is called... lol).

    This place can be the place where we're above all that, if we want. Something a little more special than the other places.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
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    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    @dneal, yes, I truly get that. I've been often chided for my inks or where I use them
    Last edited by Yazeh; February 15th, 2022 at 11:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    @dneal, yes, I truly get that. I've been often chided for my inks or where I use them
    I was looking through some of the repair threads, and there seems to be a trend where the OP's question is never answered. They're questioned on a variety of "why's", told they're going to screw it up, told to send it to someone else, etc... Clarity is good. Caveats and warnings are good too. So is providing references to repair folks. But the predominant thought seems to be negative.

    Your comment on ink is relevant, Baystate Blue being one of the most common. Sure there are some that are unaware and should be warned that the price you'll pay for the color is that you'll never get rid of the color; but the same thing happens. Negativity. If someone wants to use BSB in their uber-expensive, limited edition MonteGrande Exceptionale piston filler, enjoy. We can't be content with allowing people their decisions though. That sort of thread would be full of "You shouldn't..." and "I wouldn't...". Expressions of negativity often bordering on condemnation. How many vintage pens have ink windows permanently clouded from old iron-gall blue blacks? They're writing instruments. They got used as such with little thought of what someone would think decades later. That'll have the hackles up of the collectors, but those drawer-fulls of pristine examples at some point won't exist either - just like their owners. Do what makes you happy.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Ironic, since you are telling everyone what they shouldn't be doing, what advice they shouldn't be giving, and projecting a pervasive sense of negativity that is blown out of proportion.

    It's funny how, in my profession, and in my life, I've never shied away from advice that gave full weight to the problems and pitfalls of certain approaches. I've benefited from the opinions of those who had gone through these issues and could relate the positives and negatives, giving me the broadest range of approaches and information. Then, and only then, was I able to determine a good course of action. I'm glad they all spoke up and indicated their beliefs, rather than self-censoring. The latter, however, is what some here seem to want: a real FAFO approach to these topics.

    Yeah, go for it.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; February 15th, 2022 at 03:20 PM.
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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    The righteous indignation doesn't carry any weight with me Jon. Go back and look at post #10. If negativity is pervasive, you're a primary purveyor. Feel free to point out the positives I missed, suggestions you made for a good course of action, etc...

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    The righteous indignation doesn't carry any weight with me Jon.
    Noted.

    Go back and look at post #10. If negativity is pervasive, you're a primary purveyor. Feel free to point out the positives I missed, suggestions you made for a good course of action, etc...
    It was a commentary on what little information had been posted and is accurate. If you want to gloss over elements of a procedure that you think are unsound, that is your prerogative. I've got more than my share of positives posted all over this board, if and when the situation warrants. I don't happen to believe that negativity is rampant here, that is your... "projection" is the term I used.

    Another irony is how well the OP and I ended up in the same discussion elsewhere. He understood what you seem to miss.

    ETA: I've still got some kind of reasonable connection with dneal, which has held up over the years. I'd like to keep that as intact as possible, so that's my last post in the thread.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; February 15th, 2022 at 06:13 PM.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

  22. #33
    Senior Member Ron Z's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    I have developed the habit of looking for problems by nature and by training. A radio engineer for about 28 years (13 as Chief Engineer for a small network) then a contract engineer, and having worked on pens for about 32 years now, I look for and try to anticipate problems when I go to work on something. Working on transmitters with 6 KV flying around inside them, or doing tower work, or repairing damaged equipment you think things through before you make a move - in any area of your work. Ignore it, and it can kill you. In pen repair, it saves me from having to tell a client that I broke their pen - and the cost of finding a part or replacement. I like fixing pens and having customers that are happy with the results.

    I repair hundreds of pens a year. I see, and often have had to fix, the consequences of someone thinking a bit far "outside the box." My comments come from that mind bent. My intended audience is someone who is interested in repairing a pen and preserving its original design, or maybe not breaking the pen that they enjoy. My comments are based on experience, and I am not bothered when someone does not like what I write. Some will read and apply what they learn. Others apparently will just get angry.

    Perhaps they would be happier if they just blocked my posts and ignored them.
    Last edited by Ron Z; February 15th, 2022 at 06:14 PM.

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  24. #34
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    If there's a point in that radio engineer diatribe, I can't find it. Should I write a paragraph on 30 years of maintenance and materiel management? Experiences in combat zones, since things that kill you now seems important in a thread about modding a fountain pen? What kind of "out of the box thinking" stories should we compare?

    The mean girls club likes to dish it out, but they can't take it. I can, and I've made it perfectly clear over the years here that I couldn't care less whether or not people like what I write or if it makes them angry. There's no ignore button or block function needed on my end. I don't initiate the bullshit though, I just call it out. It's pretty simple really. Don't be an asshole, and I won't either.

    I imagine there's a feeling of impotence that becomes uncomfortable for people used to super-mod powers to give warning points, memory-hole posts, or generally force posters to submit to their will or wims (or is that whims?).

    Apologies to Eric for the whining emails and "reports" that must be flooding his inbox again. None of them will be from me though. I'm ok with the big-boy rules.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

  25. #35
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Had a similar issue with a Moore 94A Art Deco pen. I found a piston converter with a tight friction fit to the section and pushed it in.



    The nib was buggered, so I chose one with the same radius— an Osmiroid Italic— from my repair box.



    While I wouldn't sell it as an original, it does write.

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  27. #36
    Senior Member pajaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanting to forgo the sac

    Potato gun . . . pound a pen into each popato and BAM.

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