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Thread: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

  1. #481
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    The Times reports that Putin has changed commanders again. Surovikin out and Gerasimov in, with Surovikin to be one of the deputies to Gerasimov. And Gerasimov was one of the guys who planned the invasion...but he is loyal to Putin. I guess loyalty matters in a dictatorship.

    Russia has once again shaken up its military command in Ukraine in the latest sign of its faltering invasion.

    Gen. Valery Gerasimov, who helped plan Russia’s stumbling invasion in February and who had served as President Vladimir V. Putin’s military chief of general staff for over a decade, has replaced Gen. Sergei Surovikin as the head of the Russian forces in Ukraine, the Defense Ministry said in a statement on Wednesday.

    General Surovikin, who had previously commanded Russian forces in Syria and was installed to lead Russia’s campaign in Ukraine in October, is now one of General Gerasimov’s three deputies, according to the statement.

    Analysts said the replacement of General Surovikin, a respected commander inside the Russian military, with a Kremlin apparatchik like General Gerasimov — who served as an architect of the invasion, including the failed battle plan to take over Kyiv in the first days of the war — showed that President Vladimir V. Putin remains focused on projecting stability rather than improving Russia’s darkening military outlook.

    “They have taken someone who is competent and replaced him with someone who is incompetent, but who has been there a long time and who has shown that he is loyal,” said Dara Massicot, senior policy researcher at the RAND Corporation in Washington. “Whatever is happening in Moscow, it is out of touch with what is happening on the ground in Ukraine.”

    In October, General Surovikin’s appointment to lead Russian forces in Ukraine ended months of disjointed military operations that analysts said contributed to Russia’s disastrous battlefield performance. His appointment came after the Ukrainians recovered thousands of square miles of territory in a lightning counteroffensive in the northeast of the country.

    Under General Surovikin, the Russian military largely switched to a defensive mode, allowing it to reduce the military failures that had characterized the first half year of the war. He was able to conduct an orderly retreat from the southern city of Kherson, the only Ukrainian provincial capital captured by Russian forces in nearly a year since the invasion.

    But General Surovikin, who earned a reputation for ruthlessness in Syria, also launched waves of missile and drone attacks intended to cripple the Ukrainian energy grid as winter set in. The strategy seemed intended to demoralize Ukrainian civilians and erode the will to fight.

    His replacement with General Gerasimov was met with derision from some nationalist Russian military bloggers, who have compared the reshuffle to a game of musical chairs among Moscow’s ineffectual military old guard. The bloggers have become increasingly vocal in recent weeks in calling for an overhaul of Russia’s approach to war to protect its shrinking gains in Ukraine against an increasingly well-armed and -trained opponent.

    “The sum does not change, just by changing the places of its parts,” a prominent military blogger, who posts on the Telegram messaging app under the name of Rybar, wrote.

    — Anatoly Kurmanaev

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Wonder if Putin sees Napoleon in his nightmares?


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    welch (January 11th, 2023)

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Wonder if Putin sees Napoleon in his nightmares?

    Probably in his dreams rather than nightmares.

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Stay tuned for the next exciting episode.
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    IWS on the latest Russian supreme command shuffle, Surovikin demoted in favor of Gerasimov.

    https://understandingwar.org/backgro...anuary-11-2023

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    That shuffle doesn't mean what you think it means.
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Winter is not a happy time for Putin's armies.

    Russia’s New Winter War

    Could Putin Go the Way of Napoleon and Hitler?

    By Antony Beevor
    December 29, 2022

    Page urlhttps://www.foreignaffairs.com/russi...new-winter-war

    One of Russia’s greatest military victories came with the coldest European winter in 500 years. At the beginning of the eighteenth century, Tsar Peter the Great struggled to repel the formidable forces of Charles XII of Sweden, advancing on Moscow. Then came the Great Frost of 1708–9. Birds were said to have frozen in midflight and dropped dead to the ground. Charles’s army of more than 40,000 men soon lost half its strength from exposure and starvation. In an attempt to escape the cold, the Swedish king led the remnants of his army south into Ukraine to join the Cossack leader, Hetman Ivan Mazepa, and his forces. But the damage was done. The following summer, Peter’s Russian army routed Charles’s weakened forces at the Battle of Poltava, bringing an end to Sweden’s empire and its designs on Russia.

    The Swedes were neither the first nor the last European army to suffer the ravages of “General Winter” on Russia’s frontiers. Exacerbated by the vast expanse of the Eurasian landmass, winter fighting there has often proved to be the downfall of great armies. For centuries, this phenomenon has often worked to Russia’s advantage, as a succession of powerful militaries have succumbed to inadequate equipment, deficient supply lines, and poor preparation. But as Russian President Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine enters the harshest months of the year, there are many indications that this time it may be Russia, rather than its adversary, that suffers the worst consequences.

    HIS EMPIRE FOR A HORSE
    Europe’s best-known winter defeat in Russia came in 1812—just over a century after the Battle of Poltava—when Napoleon’s Grande Armée retreated from Moscow. Russia’s scorched-earth tactics, which left the French with no food or shelter along the line of withdrawal, made the effect even more deadly. Yet the greatest casualties had occurred earlier.

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    The Grande Armée had been almost half a million strong when it crossed the River Neman, the frontier between Prussia and Russia, in June 1812. But it soon lost a third of its strength from summer heat, disease, hunger, and exhaustion as the emperor forced his men on toward Moscow. Although the retreat into Russia’s expanse was unintended at first, Tsar Alexander I’s commanders soon realized the advantage. They kept withdrawing east and did not make a stand until General Mikhail Kutuzov was ordered to halt Napoleon at Borodino, 75 miles west of Moscow. The battle proved a costly victory for the French, even though it enabled them to enter Moscow unopposed.

    But it was the approaching winter that proved fatal for the invaders. Napoleon wasted five weeks in Moscow expecting the tsar to come to terms. When the Grande Armée finally started to withdraw to central Europe on October 19, the soldiers were still wearing their summer uniforms. They had also lost their baggage trains and could expect little food along the way. Their greatest deficiency was in cavalry to hold off marauding Cossacks. The shaggy Cossack ponies were accustomed to the winter blizzards, which began a month later, while the last of the chargers and draft horses from western Europe collapsed from the cold and lack of forage. Starving soldiers hacked off their meat even before they were dead. Desertion or surrender was far from a guarantee of survival. Avenging Cossacks waited to skewer enemy soldiers on their long lances; Russian peasants simply slaughtered them with scythes. By early December, Napoleon feared a coup d’état during his absence, and, abandoning his army, headed for Paris before his frozen men could reach safety. By this point, his forces had suffered nearly 400,000 casualties, and he had lost his reputation for invincibility on the battlefield.

    Less well known, although perhaps equally significant, was the way Russia won. Despite having lost 200,000 of its own men, Russia’s military leadership was far less concerned about casualties than was Napoleon. Russian officers still treated their peasant soldiers as little better than serfs (and serfdom would not be abolished in Russia for another 50 years). This lack of interest in soldiers’ well-being—and the casual attitude to massive losses through so-called meat-grinder tactics—are apparent in Putin’s army in Ukraine today.

    RED TERROR, WHITE FROST
    Another half century later, in World War I, the attitude of Russia’s military authorities had barely changed. Their men were expendable. Trench life for the rank and file along the eastern front that ran through Belorussia, Galicia, and Romania from 1915 to 1917 was an inhuman experience. And many resented that officers retired each night to the warmth and relative comfort of peasant log huts behind the front.

    “Having dug themselves into the ground,” the Russian writer and anti-tsarist Maxim Gorky observed of the enlisted men, “they live in rain and snow, in filth, in cramped conditions; they are being worn out by disease and eaten by vermin; they live like beasts.” Many lacked boots and had to resort to bast shoes made from birch bark. Stations for treating the wounded at the front were almost as primitive as they had been in the Crimean War. This reality was in cruel contrast to the photographs of the tsarina and her grand duchess daughters immaculately dressed as nurses before the February 1917 revolution.

    Winter conditions in the Russian Civil War (1917–*21) were even worse. The most pitiful victims were the civilian refugees fleeing the Bolshevik onslaught, or what became known as the Red Terror. During the winter of 1919, the collapse of Admiral Kolchak’s White Russian armies in Siberia produced terrible scenes along the jammed Trans-Siberian Railroad. Aristocrats, middle-class families, and anti-Bolsheviks of all backgrounds were trying to escape to Vladivostok in the Russian Far East to avoid capture by the Communist Red Army, which was advancing from the Urals.

    In World War I, many Russians lacked boots and had to resort to shoes made of birch bark.
    By mid-December of that year, the Reds caught up with the tail of the line and took the southern Siberian city and industrial hub of Novo-Nikolaevsk (present-day Novosibirsk), along with numerous trains still blocked there. The city itself was in the grip of a typhus epidemic. All horses, carts, and sledges available had already been taken, so the desperate set out on foot, not knowing that farther ahead in Krasnoyarsk cases had reached more than 30,000.

    “A mass retreat is one of the saddest and most despairing sights in the world,” Captain Brian Horrocks, a British officer in the Allied intervention in Russia, wrote. “The sick just fell down and died in the snow.” He was horrified by the squalid conditions faced even by those refugees who had managed to find a place in packed cattle wagons. Most wagons lacked any heating as temperatures dropped to as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit. “The thing which impressed me most was the fortitude with which the women, many of them reared in luxury, were facing their hopeless future,” he wrote. “The menfolk were much more given to self-pity.” Kolchak’s staff officers were by then drinking themselves into oblivion.

    As White Russian, Czech, and Polish commanders argued bitterly over priority for their troop trains, starving and frozen refugees were dying at an alarming rate. One officer wrote that trains at some Siberian stations were unloading hundreds of bodies of people who had died from cold and disease. “These bodies were stacked up at the stations like so much cordwood,” another officer wrote. “Those who remained alive never talked, never thought of anything save how they might escape death and get farther and farther away from the Bolsheviks.”

    In the northern Caucasus, known for its blazing summer heat, winter could sometimes produce drops in temperature of more than 22 degrees Fahrenheit in less than an hour. In February 1920, General Dmitry Pavlov’s cavalry divisions were caught in the open by a sudden blizzard. Pavlov “lost half of his horses which froze in the steppe,” the Red Army high command noted. But the human losses were far worse. “We left behind in the steppe thousands of men frozen to death, and the blizzard buried them,” a Cossack officer recounted. Those who survived did so by huddling against their horses. Pavlov, who had ignored warnings of the possible change in the weather, suffered severe frostbite himself.

    STALIN’S ICE BREAKERS
    By the twentieth century, winter conditions on the Eurasian landmass posed a growing threat not just to humans and horses but also to military weaponry. Sometimes this worked to Russia’s detriment. Despite its disproportionate strength and its massive expenditure of ammunition, the Soviet army failed to break Finnish resistance in the Winter War of 1939–40, following Stalin’s invasion of Finland. The Finns, proving themselves even better practitioners of winter tactics than their invaders, terrorized Red Army soldiers by day and night as their white-camouflaged ski troops launched surprise attacks from forests, then disappeared like ghosts. Their bravery and skill persuaded Stalin to accept Finland’s independence. But it also served as a lesson for the war to come.

    During the rapid military mechanization between the two world wars, the Soviet Union had created the largest tank force in the world. The Red Army at least learned that guns and engines needed special lubricants in extreme conditions. Such measures proved key in Stalin’s ability to block Hitler’s armies in front of Moscow in December 1941. Both the German army and the Luftwaffe were unprepared. They had to light fires under their vehicles and aircraft engines to defrost them.

    German soldiers referred bitterly to winter conditions as “weather for Russians.” They envied the Red Army’s winter uniforms, with white camouflage suits and padded cotton jackets, which were far more effective than German greatcoats. Russian military historians have attributed the comparatively low rate of frostbite and trench foot among Soviet forces to their old military practice of using layered linen foot bandages instead of socks. German soldiers also suffered more rapidly because their jackboots had steel studs that drained any warmth. In February 1943, when the remnants of Field Marshal Paulus’s Sixth Army finally surrendered at Stalingrad—the psychological turning point of World War II—more than 90,000 German prisoners limped out of the city on frost-ravaged feet. Yet their suffering had been caused less by cold than by Hitler’s orders to hold on there and the inability of German panzers with their narrow tracks to counterattack in the snow.

    General Winter also played a major role in the Red Army’s final victory in 1945. The great Soviet breakthrough in January, a charge from the River Vistula to the River Oder, depended on the weather. Russian forecasters had predicted “a strange winter,” with “heavy rain and wet snow” after the hard frosts of January. An order went out to repair boots. Stalin and the Red Army’s supreme command set January 12 as the start date for the offensive, so that the Soviets’ tank armies could take advantage of the deep-frozen ground before any thaw set in. Characteristically, Stalin falsely claimed that he had advanced the date from January 20 to take pressure off the Americans in the Ardennes. (U.S. forces had already halted the German offensive there just after Christmas.) In fact, there was another motive: Stalin wanted to control the bulk of Polish territory before he met U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill at Yalta in the first week of February.


    More than 90,000 German prisoners limped out of Stalingrad on frost-ravaged feet.
    Stalin’s commanders did not let him down. “Our tanks move faster than the trains to Berlin,” boasted the ebullient Colonel Iosif Gusakovsky. He had not bothered to wait for bridging equipment to reach the frontlines before attempting to cross the River Pilica. He simply ordered his leading tanks to smash the ice with gunfire, then to drive straight across the riverbed. The tanks, acting like icebreakers, pushed the ice aside “with a terrible thundering noise,” a terrifying experience for the poor drivers. The German eastern front in Poland collapsed under the armored onslaught, once again because the Soviet T-34’s broad tracks could cope with the ice and snow far better than any German panzer.

    After 1945, the Red Army’s achievements in winter warfare gave it a fearsome reputation in the West. It was not until the Soviet Union’s ill-planned invasion of Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968—the Warsaw Pact forces lacked maps, food supplies, and fuel—that Western analysts first began to suspect that they might have overestimated the Soviets’ warfighting abilities.

    Finally, in the 1980s, the collapse of the Soviet empire was marked by its doomed struggle to control Afghanistan, a terrain that made winter warfare impossible for conventional armies. Then, during the economic collapse in the 1990s, Russian President Boris Yeltsin’s government often proved unable to pay officers and soldiers alike and corruption became institutionalized. Conscripts were frequently on the edge of starvation because their rations were sold off; theft, bullying, and ill discipline became rampant. Spare parts from vehicles, as well as anything from fuel to light bulbs, boots, and especially any cold weather kit, disappeared onto the black market.

    Corruption became even worse following Russia’s chaotic invasion of Georgia in 2008. Putin began throwing money at the armed forces. The waste on prestige projects encouraged contractors and generals alike to pad their bank accounts. Little appears to have been done in reassessing military doctrine. The Russian idea of urban warfare had still not evolved from World War II, with their artillery, the “god of war,” smashing everything to rubble. This approach would continue during Russian intervention in the Syrian civil war from 2015.

    Yet Putin’s greatest triumph in Russian eyes was the covert seizure of Crimea the year before by infiltrating it with un-uniformed “little green men” from special forces. This was part of Putin’s angry reaction to the Maidan revolution in Kyiv, which forced his ally President Viktor Yanukovych to flee and led to the start of fighting in the Donbas region of Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine.

    PUTIN IN DENIAL
    In February 2022, eight years later, Putin launched his “special military operation” in Ukraine. At the time, the vanguard was told to bring their parade uniforms ready to celebrate victory—one of the greatest examples of military hubris in history. Yet seven disastrous months later, when the Kremlin was finally forced to order a “partial mobilization” of the Russian population, it had to warn those called up that uniforms and equipment were in short supply. They would have to provide their own body armor and even ask their mothers and girlfriends for sanitary pads to use instead of field dressings. The lack of bandages is astonishing, especially now as winter intensifies, since they are vital to keep frost from entering open wounds. Adding to the dangers are mortar rounds hitting frozen ground: unlike soft mud, which absorbs most of the blast, frozen ground causes fragments to ricochet, in sometimes lethal ways.

    Putin’s new commander in chief in the south, General Sergei Surovikin, is determined to clamp down on attempts by some conscripts to avoid combat. Many have been resorting to the sabotage of fuel, weapons, and vehicles, to say nothing of self-inflicted wounds and desertion. Yet the Russian army’s long-standing structural problem—its shortage of experienced noncommissioned officers—has also led to a terrible record of maintaining weapons, equipment, and vehicles. These problems will become especially costly in winter with sensitive technology such as drones.

    As both sides enter a far more challenging season of fighting, the outcome will largely depend on morale and determination. While Russian troops curse their shortages and lack of hot food, Ukrainian troops are now benefiting from supplies of insulated camouflage suits, tents with stoves, and sleeping bags provided by Canada and the Nordic nations. Putin seems to be in denial about the state of his army and the way that General Winter will favor his opponents. He may also have made another mistake by concentrating his missiles against Ukraine’s energy network and its vulnerable civilian population. They will endure the greatest suffering, but there is little chance that they will break.
    From Foreign Affairs, 29 December, 2022. Mentioned by George Will, a guy I hardly ever read. But this is good.

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    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Apparently, Netanyahu cares more about sucking up to Putin than about the US, despite the billions in military aid and weapons we've handed them. And another recipient of enormous military spending, Saudi Arabia, just screwed us with a grin on oil prices. Time to cut our handouts to the theocrats and increase our aid to Ukraine in the same proportion.

    Pentagon Sends U.S. Arms Stored in Israel to Ukraine

    Israeli officials had initially expressed concerns that the move could damage its relations with Russia.


    By Eric Schmitt,*Adam Entous,*Ronen Bergman,*John Ismay and Thomas Gibbons-Neff
    Jan. 17, 2023

    WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is tapping into a vast but little-known stockpile of American ammunition in Israel to help meet Ukraine’s dire need for artillery shells in the war with Russia, American and Israeli officials say.

    The stockpile provides arms and ammunition for the Pentagon to use in Middle East conflicts. The United States has also allowed Israel to access the supplies in emergencies.

    The Ukraine conflict has become an artillery-driven war of attrition, with each side lobbing thousands of shells every day. Ukraine has run low on munitions for its Soviet-era weaponry and has largely shifted to firing artillery and rounds donated by the United States and other Western allies.

    Artillery constitutes the backbone of ground combat firepower for both Ukraine and Russia, and the war’s outcome may hinge on which side runs out of ammunition first, military analysts say. With stockpiles in the United States strained and American arms makers not yet able to keep up with the pace of Ukraine’s battlefield operations, the Pentagon has turned to two alternative supplies of shells to bridge the gap: one in South Korea and the one in Israel, whose use in the Ukraine war has not been previously reported.

    The shipment of hundreds of thousands of artillery shells from the two stockpiles to help sustain Ukraine’s war effort is a story about the limits of America’s industrial base and the diplomatic sensitivities of two vital U.S. allies that have publicly committed not to send lethal military aid to Ukraine.

    Israel has consistently refused to supply weapons to Ukraine out of fear of damaging relations with Moscow and initially expressed concerns about appearing complicit in arming Ukraine if the Pentagon drew its munitions from the stockpile. About half of the 300,000 rounds destined for Ukraine have already been shipped to Europe and will eventually be delivered through Poland, Israeli and American officials said.

    As senior defense and military officials from dozens of nations, including NATO states, prepare to meet at Ramstein Air Base in Germany on Friday to discuss sending Ukraine more tanks and other arms, U.S. officials have been scrambling behind the scenes to cobble together enough shells to keep Kyiv sufficiently supplied this year, including through an anticipated spring offensive.

    “With the front line now mostly stationary, artillery has become the most important combat arm,” Mark F. Cancian, a former White House weapons strategist, said in a new study for the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, where he is a senior adviser.

    Another analysis published last month by the Foreign Policy Research Institute said that if Ukraine continued to receive a steady supply of ammunition, particularly for artillery, as well as spare parts, it would stand a good chance of wresting back more territory that Russia had seized.

    “The question is whether these advantages will prove sufficient for Ukrainian forces to retake territory from entrenched Russian troops,” wrote Rob Lee and Michael Kofman, leading military analysts.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/u...e=articleShare

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    @Chip sez:
    "Time to cut our handouts to the theocrats and increase our aid to Ukraine in the same proportion."

    You funny! Fogot why USA provides KSA with arms/protection? Look it up. Since 1945. KSA is telling you something "is happening here, but you don't know what it is do you Mr Jones." (Thanks Bob)

    "The West" is only 20% of the planet. The other 80% is getting stroppy. Yup. The times the are a-changing.
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    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Meanwhile, in the real world:

    - Russia bombs an apartment complex in its winter war on Ukrainian civilians

    - Several Ukrainian government ministers have been forced to resign by corruption scandals

    The deputy head of Ukraine’s presidential office, Kyrylo Tymoshenko, said on Tuesday he had asked President Volodymyr Zelenskiy on Monday to relieve him of his duties as part of a wave of government resignations and dismissals. The move comes amid a corruption scandal which saw Infrastructure deputy Vasyl Lozinskyi sacked and detained for an alleged theft of $400,000 from the winter aid budget. Tymoshenko, 33, had been the deputy head of presidential office since 2019, overseeing regions and regional policies. He also worked with Zelenskiy during his election campaign, overseeing media and creative content.

    Ukraine’s deputy defence minister Vyacheslav Shapovalov, responsible for supplying troops with food and equipment, has also resigned, citing “media accusations” of corruption that he and the ministry say are baseless. A statement on the defence ministry’s website said Shapovalov’s resignation was “a worthy deed” that would help retain trust in the ministry
    - Germany is closer and closer to supplying Ukraine with Leaopard 2 tanks, and to allowing countries that already have Leopards to "sell" them to Ukraine.

    Germany to deal with Poland's tank request 'urgently'

    Berlin will examine and make a decision over Poland’s application to send 14 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine “with necessary urgency”, a spokesperson has confirmed – but a decision could still take up to a fortnight.

    On Tuesday a representative of the German government told journalists: “We will deal with the application with necessary urgency,” Agency France Presse reports.

    Under Germany’s war weapons control rules, countries using German-made armaments are required to seek Berlin’s permission if they want to transfer the military equipment to a third party.

    A German government source said a decision could be made within one to two weeks.
    Details on two of these here, in the UK Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...anks-if-needed

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Russians demonstrate their skill at killing civilians.

    DNIPRO, Ukraine (AP) — The death toll from the Ukraine war’s deadliest attack on civilians at one location since last spring reached 45 at an apartment building a Russian missile blasted in the southeastern city of Dnipro, officials said Tuesday.

    Those killed in the Saturday afternoon strike included six children, with 79 people injured, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy wrote on the Telegram messaging app. The toll included two dozen people initially listed as missing at the multistory building, which housed about 1,700, according to Kyrylo Tymoshenko, deputy head of the Ukrainian president’s office.

    Emergency crews cleared some 9 metric tons (9.9 tons) of rubble during a non-stop search and rescue operation, the Dnipro City Council said. About 400 people lost their homes, with 72 apartments completely ruined and another 236 damaged beyond repair, it added.

    People converged at the site Tuesday to lay flowers, light candles and bring plush toys. For a third day in a row, Dnipro resident Oleksandr Pohorielov came to mourn.

    “It’s like coming to the cemetery to your family. It’s a memory, to say a proper goodbye. To remain a human after all,” he explained as an intense reek of burning emanated from the building’s ruins.

    Volunteers helped Nadiia Yaroshenko’s son escape from their third floor apartment on a makeshift ladder but their white cat Beliash refused to leave. He remains in his favorite place at a window that is now blown out, Yaroshenko said, desperately trying to see him from the courtyard with a flashlight.

    “We cannot reach the apartment even with rescuers because the apartment is in an emergency and dangerous condition. Walls could collapse there every minute,” she said.

    The latest deadly Russian strike on a civilian target in the almost 11-month wa r triggered outrage. It also prompted the surprise resignation on Tuesday of a Ukrainian presidential adviser who had said the Russian missile exploded and fell after the Ukrainian air defense system shot it down, a version that would take some of the blame off the Kremlin’s forces.

    Oleksii Arestovych’s comments in a Saturday interview caused an outcry. He said as he quit that his remarks were “a fundamental mistake.” Ukraine’s air force had stressed that the country’s military did not have a system that could down Russia’s Kh-22 supersonic missiles, the type that hit the apartment building.
    More details in the article.

    https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...56e1a1ea708929

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    "."Russians demonstrate their skill at killing civilians


    Korea, Guatamala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Haiti, El Salvador, Iraq, Libya, Serbia, Somalia, Congo, East Timor, Laos Cambodia, Viet Nam, Sudan, Afghanistan, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Chile, Argentina, and so on don't count? Just checking.


    He who is without sin cast the first stone
    Last edited by karmachanic; January 24th, 2023 at 10:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Looks like we've got a Russian troll.

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Following the news about tanks, the German Leopard series and the US Abrams, I learned a few things.

    One: the Germans have sold the Leopard tank to quite a few nations and there are a lot of them, with stocks of ammunition, in countries that favor Ukraine.

    Two: the basic design of the Leopard tank is rather old and well-proven. The engine is a V-12 diesel, that uses the same fuel as other diesel vehicles.

    Three: the US Abrams tank is powered by a turbine. Early versions had such a hot exhaust plume that troops taking shelter behind them got scorched. The present version has a cooler exhaust, but it runs on specialized aviation fuel, with high sulfur content compared to the #2 diesel most often used in heavy vehicles. So Ukraine would have to create a separate supply chain to refuel the Abrams tanks.

    https://generalaviationnews.com/2011...s-diesel-fuel/

    Evidently, the turbine can be replaced with a conventional diesel engine, but the process would take time.

  17. #495
    Senior Member karmachanic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Looks like we've got a Russian troll.
    Just a person who has lived in five countries for extended periods, and who simply pays attention to what is happening in the world. The combined West is only 20% of the worlds population. Maybe pay attention to what the rest is saying and doing, Unless you don't mind getting caught out in the rain. Storm's coming. The wind's shifting and the smell of rain is in the air.
    Add Lightness and Simplicate

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmachanic View Post
    ...Maybe pay attention to what the rest is saying and doing, Unless you don't mind getting caught out in the rain. Storm's coming. The wind's shifting and the smell of rain is in the air.
    Edward Thomas once wrote this about rain:

    Rain
    BY EDWARD THOMAS

    Rain, midnight rain, nothing but the wild rain
    On this bleak hut, and solitude, and me
    Remembering again that I shall die
    And neither hear the rain nor give it thanks
    For washing me cleaner than I have been
    Since I was born into this solitude.
    Blessed are the dead that the rain rains upon:
    But here I pray that none whom once I loved
    Is dying tonight or lying still awake
    Solitary, listening to the rain,
    Either in pain or thus in sympathy
    Helpless among the living and the dead,
    Like a cold water among broken reeds,
    Myriads of broken reeds all still and stiff,
    Like me who have no love which this wild rain
    Has not dissolved except the love of death,
    If love it be towards what is perfect and
    Cannot, the tempest tells me, disappoint.


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    Senior Member karmachanic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    A wise man in the East who said:

    The end of gathering is dispersion
    The end of rising is falling
    The end of meeting is parting
    The end of birth is death

    It's all a temporary arrangement.
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  20. #498
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by karmachanic View Post
    "."Russians demonstrate their skill at killing civilians


    Korea, Guatamala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Haiti, El Salvador, Iraq, Libya, Serbia, Somalia, Congo, East Timor, Laos Cambodia, Viet Nam, Sudan, Afghanistan, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Chile, Argentina, and so on don't count? Just checking.


    He who is without sin cast the first stone
    Look, I'm lefter than thou. Yes, wanted to join the Civil Rights Movement, seeing segregation spotted all over DC and Maryland as I grew up. Went to the first big March on Washington Aganst the War in Vietnam in 1965, and worked against that war for years.

    Nobody in the New Left lusted after dictatorship and oppression, which is what Putin oh, so kindly offers to the people of Ukraine. Dictatorship and war crimes, murders in Bucha and nearly everywhere that the Russian army goes.

    Your sort of "anti-imperialism" insists that Putin is justified in his invasion of Ukraine because the US invaded Iraq. Either that is idiotic, or merely illogical, or a twisted defense of Putinist imperialism.

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    Senior Member welch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    And today's news: eleven people killed overnight as Russia continues to bomb civilian targets all over Ukraine.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ommit-to-tanks

    And here is the story from Al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...missile-strike
    Last edited by welch; January 26th, 2023 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post

    Your sort of "anti-imperialism" insists that Putin is justified in his invasion of Ukraine because the US invaded Iraq.
    I did not read karmachanic's post as an attempt to justify Putin's invasion. Just a reminder that the USA is adept at dubious (if not worse) killing also. Which is true. That's all. These aren't equivalencies or justifications. I don't mind the reminder.

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